Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

reuters.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

571–580 of 735 posts

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#571

Post by gpt5 »

dragonwriter wrote: post #535
gpt5 wrote: post #520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, this is exactly why they are doing it. This is coming out of the belief that the Jewish people need a Jewish refuge state based on the constant past consequences of not having one. If they didn’t control for their population, they’d need to decide between not being a Jewish state and not being democratic.

> This is coming out of the belief that the Jewish people need a Jewish refuge state based on the constant past consequences of not having one. It's funny how the experience of being subjected to a racist, human -rights-disregarding ethnonationalist regime that engaged aggression based on a desire for historic ethnic territory and a desire for buffer space has provoked the creation of a racist, human-rights-disregard…

I don’t think that comparing Israel to Nazi germany is funny nor is it remotely accurate.

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#572

Post by jfengel »

pthread_t wrote: post #550
wildrhythms wrote: post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'Israel is slowly losing its support' is a bit of a retelling... even in light of recent public and viral pro-Palestine support, Israel continues to maintain favorability among elected officials and people in America- in fact, favorability toward Israel has only increased since 2019[0]. And policies favoring Israel is not isolated to a federal level; many U.S. states force educators to sign agreements to not criticiz…

"25% of American Jews consider Israel to be an apartheid state" [0] "Young evangelicals are increasingly turning away from Israel" [1] [0] https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/a-quarter-of-u-s-jews-agree-... [1] https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2021/05/26/a...

Both things may be true. Jews and Evangelicals have a different view of Israel than ordinary Americans, most of whom pay it little mind.

Jews and Evangelicals generally support Israel, albeit for different reasons. Some are, as you note, increasingly unsure of that support, especially as it extends the rule of a government that is widely seen (not just by Israel's enemies) as cruel. But older Evangelicals have a nearly fanatical support of Israel -- including those same policies.

And in general, Americans see Israel as an ally in a turbulent Middle East. Their support for it will depend largely on their perception of Middle Eastern politics and our need for their support.

Jews are a small minority in the US. Evangelicals are a large minority. So you can get countervailing trends that end up making both what you said and what the GP said true.

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#573

Post by iso1631 »

sempron64 wrote: post #375
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hypothetical doesn’t ban marrying Russian speakers or citizens. It doesn’t ban naturalisation based on marriage for a Russian speaker. It bans naturalisation based on marriage for Russian citizens. While at war that seems fine.

Thank you, this is my point. The Israeli right wing views the Palestinian state as an extension of Jordan and other Arab states surrounding Israel, and while they are not currently shooting at each other, they are most definitely not at peace with them.

> they are most definitely not at peace with them

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Jordan_peace_tr...

"The signing ceremony took place at the southern border crossing of Arabah on 26 October 1994. Jordan was the second Arab country, after Egypt, to sign a peace accord with Israel"

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#574

Post by talhof8 »

ambrozk wrote: post #570
talhof8 wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m talking about drawing a false romantic narrative of an uprising of the people, when the reality is it’s just terror. Lets call it a Terroristic Uprising, more suiting.

I will repeat what I said, which is that this is rhetorical point-scoring, not discussion of reality. It's not helpful. Everyone with two neurons to rub together understands that both the Palestinians and the Israelis have engaged in terror against one another over the course of a century of inter-ethnic conflict.

None of the comments here are helpful. You could call it however you like, rhetorical point-scoring or not, to the vast majority of people who read the word “uprising” it comes off as this romantic movement of liberation. As an Israeli this bothers me. Needles to say it bothers me even more when Israelis do this towards the other side. For me, this is very much a reality and not just a “words game”.

BTW, this is not to say I agree with this law.

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#575

Post by OlleTO »

snird wrote: post #540
jmyeet wrote: post #522

Israel is an apartheid state, a claim now explicitly made by Amnesty International [1]. Pick any number of highlights: - Denying citizenship to Palestinians (and other Muslims); - The Palestinian residence card system. Families that cannot be reunited because of it; - Population quotas in Jerusalem. Palestinians who have it and leave to, say, go to college will be deemed to have abandoned their residency to maintain…

False. Israeli government has Arab list in it, with Arab ministers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Arab_List Not the parliament - the government itself. This is by definition not an apartheid state. This law denying citizenship is to block a loophole used by known terrorists to come into Israel and explode Jews on busses. Here are some examples for you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_HaSharon_Mall_suicide_b…

None of your links details anything about how the perpetrators in those attacks were able to enter Israel due to being naturalized through marriage.

In addition, the article notes that several supported of the law (at least one who's in Knesset) claim that the invention is for Israel to maintain its "Jewish character".

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#576

Post by throwaway2048 »

starik36 wrote: post #515
sndman wrote: post #483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this law will only hurt the Israeli image abroad a little bit. The 3 recent human rights reports (calling Israel out for practicing apartheid) are much more damaging. This is really about the (internationally recognized) right of return of the Palestinians. To paraphrase Bill Clinton's advisor James Carville in 1992: "It's demographics, stupid". The 2003 law explicitly did not apply to residents of Jewish set…

[flagged]

Not sure what your statement has to do with the claims the parent made.

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#577

Post by rory »

walkhour wrote: post #529
ambrozk wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The situation is very much analogous to South African Apartheid. In both cases, an insecure population at the helm of an ethnostate sought to further deprive their state's already-disenfranchised co-residents of legal rights, in an effort to achieve security for themselves. White South Africans made the exact same arguments as Israelis, and in fact collaborated extensively with Israeli security services because they…

There are also differences between Israel and a South African Apartheid. Israel is in a constant state of war and danger of losing its sovereignty. No such justification existed in South African Apartheid. > but I think it is deeply unwise and immoral to further entrench the current policy of legal apartheid. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict will end in either ethnofascism and ethnic cleansing or some form of reconci…

> Israel is in a constant state of war and danger of losing its sovereignty. No such justification existed in South African Apartheid.

That's not historically correct. Violence was absolutely a stated reason / pretense of South African apartheid, especially violence between different Black tribes. I'm not sure if that should be considered "war" or not, but it's as much war as what presently goes on between Israelis and Palestinians.

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#578

Post by nec4b »

g8oz wrote: post #560
nec4b wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel would cease to exist if there was no Jewish majority anymore. Just one more Arab country instead. Would you be ok with that?

If the "national vision" can only be realized by oppression maybe there is something wrong with it.

There are plenty of countries where "national vision" is realized without an oppression to minorities. You think Israel shouldn't exist?

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#579

Post by wbsss4412 »

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #501
wbsss4412 wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel seems to care quite a bit about its image in the west, which is why every time news such as this comes out you see the same arguments trotted out over and over about how this is what’s necessary. Is western oriented propaganda and it’s important that it is seen for what it is. Now, as to your point about persecution. I do care about the safety and well-being of all involved in this. But your argument boils dow…

>The Middle East has been a melting pot for centuries No it hasn't. It's been an explicitly Islamist supremacist (sometimes under Arab dynasties, sometimes Persian or Turkish ones, but certainly never Jewish ones) imperial dominion for centuries, and was until 1924. Do you not know what dhimmi status was?

I’m not sure why you’re using Dhimmi as if it’s a trump card in this argument. It explicitly granted legal protections for non Muslims.

Compared to its contemporaries under Christian rule in Europe, the Muslim world was quite progressive in that respect. You can observe the difference as it played out in Christian Spain after the reconquista.

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#580

Post by dundarious »

amscanne wrote: post #459
dundarious wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel has many laws dictating where you can live and between which areas you can travel, and they depend on its complicated notion of citizenship and nationality. You have far fewer restrictions as a "Jewish nationality, Israeli citizen" than as "any other kind of nationality, Israeli citizen". This is the meaningful difference people are referring to when they say that "Israel is an ethnostate" or talk about "apart…

Can you be specific? I’m reasonably sure this isn’t true. The only difference in how non-Jewish Israeli citizens are treated that I’m aware of is that non-Jewish citizens are exempt from conscription. I’m always open to learning more, however. Otherwise, you seem to be talking about special legal carve-outs related to contested territories for restrictions on movement. The claim that non-Jewish Israel citizens are no…

I replied in another similar thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30644087

As for my framing and the question of "live" vs. "confer residency rights", I tried to be clear and say that my argument was about what restrictions are in place "in practice" and in the aggregate. If it is difficult for normal family formation and existence, and if that difficulty is for "demographic reasons", then that is discrimination on the Arab Israelis as well as their non-citizen spouses: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/shaked-family-unificatio...

Post reply on HN