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Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

reuters.com

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Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#431

Post by simiones »

joshenberg wrote: post #364
apricot wrote: post #138

From the article: « Proponents say the law helps ensure Israel's security and maintains its "Jewish character". » Which is eerily similar to the arguments in favor of the 1935 "Law for the Protection of German Blood and German Honour" (Nurenberg laws) in Germany, which forbade marriage between Germans and Jews.

The demographic difference between the two is staggering. If all Palestinians received right of return to Israel, Jews would immediately become a political minority. The Germans had no equivalent statistical reasoning other than racism. Think about the context before you compare people to Nazis

> If all Palestinians received right of return to Israel, Jews would immediately become a political minority.

Ok? If Russia wins their disgusting war in Ukraine, and then tries to prevent Ukrainian refugees from returning to the homes that they left, would you say that Russia is in the right, since otherwise Russians would become a minority in Ukraine?

The right is called "right of return" because these people lived there before Israel waged war on them and threw them out. Most (but certainly not all) of those waging the war were recent immigrants to Palestine, and they performed an ethnic cleansing to create their own space - extremely similar to the "living space" concept of Germany, though more necessary.

The parallels are in fact striking, not absurd.

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#432

Post by twofornone »

cs702 wrote: post #190

Here's an interesting exercise: 1. Substitute "Israel's Knesset" for ANY other legislative body anywhere. 2. Substitute "Palestinian" for ANY other nationality, ethnicity, race, sexual orientation, or other adjective describing a group to which YOU belong. 3. See if you like how it feels: "[Legislative body] passes law barring spouses who are [like you] from becoming citizens."

>Substitute "Palestinian" for ANY other nationality, ethnicity, race, sexual orientation, or other adjective describing a group to which YOU belong.

I'm not so narcissistic as to believe that I have some inalienable right to citizenship in a foreign country. Particularly if my culture is incompatible with the host nation. I would much prefer that people reserve the right to choose their foreign neighbors. Consider it an extension of the paradox of tolerance.

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#433

Post by tyingq »

thehappypm wrote: post #416
docdeek wrote: post #84

This article doesn’t really provide much in the way of explanation for why this law is being enacted. Here [0] is a better article that quotes supporters and objectors to the law. It includes the (IMHO not very convincing) figures that "Between 1993 and 2003, around 130,000 Palestinians were given Israeli citizenship or residency through family unification, including children, according to court filings. The Shin Bet…

.037% terrorism sounds high to me

That a 0.37% (or more) slice of some population that feels it's been oppressed and impoverished might engage in /(freedom fighter|terrorist)/ activities doesn't seem surprising to me.

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#434

Post by thinkcontext »

fredophile wrote: post #366
pavelrub wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The restriction applies to everybody, not just Israeli Arabs. However it is true that Israeli Arabs are the ones most affected by it.

Laws that make it illegal to sleep under bridges apply to everybody, not just the homeless. Does that mean a law against sleeping under bridges is not targeting the homeless?

The law also affects Israeli Jews, Christians, atheists, etc that want to marry Palestinians.

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#435

Post by thatsmyfribble »

MomoXenosaga wrote: post #414
thatsmyfribble wrote: post #259

First of all, this isn't a ban on Israeli-Palestinian marriage, this is a restriction on the ability to gain citizenship through those marriages. I don't agree with that, but I do think it's important to clarify. Regarding comments I'm seeing here saying Israel is an apartheid state or that Israel is racist or that Israel the concept of a Jewish state is disgusting: Israel is the size of New Jersey. It is the only st…

Yes I do find the concept of a Jewish state disgusting. It leads to a theocracy. "The issue is that if citizenship is freely given, Jews become the minority in Israel and it is no longer a Jewish state" This can be easily resolved if Israel would define what it's borders are. But Israel does not in fact want to be a normal country it is run by religious extremists.

That's where the argument over whether Israel should be a Jewish state or a state of the Jews comes from. Should Israel be a Jewish theocracy, or should it be a secular homeland for the Jewish people as an ethnic group? If you find theocracies disgusting, there are plenty of theocratic states you should also be pointing your disgust at.

The right wing element in Israel has definitely held power for a long time and their policies have led to the subjugation of minority groups (I am not defending this), though those are not the religious extremists, they are just nationalists.

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#436

Post by ambrozk »

talhof8 wrote: post #256

Off-topic: Calling the Second Intifada an "uprising" is hell of a unique way of whitewashing suicide bombings. Nothing rebellious about that, just sheer terrorism.

What are you talking about? The fact that an uprising involves terroristic tactics does not make it less of an uprising. Trying to prevent people from calling the Intifada an uprising (which is the literal translation of the word) is playing word-games for rhetorical points, not discussing reality.

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#437

Post by MomoXenosaga »

imglorp wrote: post #236
JasonFruit wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "The State of Israel is Jewish and so it will remain," said Simcha Rothman of the far-right Religious Zionism party, a member of the opposition who brought the law forward with Interior Minister Ayelet Shaked. "Today, God willing, Israel's defensive shield will be significantly strengthened," he told the Knesset hours before the vote.

I'm baffled how the people who survived the Holocaust, among numerous other persecutions, are now so intolerant of another persecuted people.

Before the holocaust Jews were slowly but surely integrating into European society. The Nazis basically altered the timeline.

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#438

Post by The5thElephant »

joshenberg wrote: post #364
apricot wrote: post #138

From the article: « Proponents say the law helps ensure Israel's security and maintains its "Jewish character". » Which is eerily similar to the arguments in favor of the 1935 "Law for the Protection of German Blood and German Honour" (Nurenberg laws) in Germany, which forbade marriage between Germans and Jews.

The demographic difference between the two is staggering. If all Palestinians received right of return to Israel, Jews would immediately become a political minority. The Germans had no equivalent statistical reasoning other than racism. Think about the context before you compare people to Nazis

Are you suggesting all Palestinians would somehow marry an Israeli citizen?

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#439

Post by moltke »

twofornone wrote: post #432
cs702 wrote: post #190

Here's an interesting exercise: 1. Substitute "Israel's Knesset" for ANY other legislative body anywhere. 2. Substitute "Palestinian" for ANY other nationality, ethnicity, race, sexual orientation, or other adjective describing a group to which YOU belong. 3. See if you like how it feels: "[Legislative body] passes law barring spouses who are [like you] from becoming citizens."

>Substitute "Palestinian" for ANY other nationality, ethnicity, race, sexual orientation, or other adjective describing a group to which YOU belong. I'm not so narcissistic as to believe that I have some inalienable right to citizenship in a foreign country. Particularly if my culture is incompatible with the host nation. I would much prefer that people reserve the right to choose their foreign neighbors. Consider it…

What makes everyone so upset is that often the people who (very successfully) lobby for open borders also strongly support Israel when they do things like this. We don't like the hypocrisy.

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#440

Post by simiones »

thatsmyfribble wrote: post #259

First of all, this isn't a ban on Israeli-Palestinian marriage, this is a restriction on the ability to gain citizenship through those marriages. I don't agree with that, but I do think it's important to clarify. Regarding comments I'm seeing here saying Israel is an apartheid state or that Israel is racist or that Israel the concept of a Jewish state is disgusting: Israel is the size of New Jersey. It is the only st…

All of your arguments are dancing around a very important fact: Israel was not founded on barren land, it was founded on a land where hundreds of thousands of Arabs had lived for many generations. It was founded by driving these Arabs out - initially with peaceful means, but very quickly through force of arms.

Not content with pushing most Arabs out of most of what used to be called Palestine, Israel then occupied the remaining lands where they fled and is trying to colonize more and more of that land, keeping it under their own control but refusing to even annex it.

If the Jews of the world had sought a sanctuary, a much more appropriate deal would have been to carve out a piece of defeated Germany to create a Jewish state, probably around a formerly Jewish-majority city. Instead of that, the search for a Jewish homeland was led by Jewish religious fundamentalists, that wanted to live in the land they believe God assigned to them. The vast majority of Jewish people were (and still are) much closer culturally to Europe than to the Arab world anyway, having been driven out of historic Israel some thousand years before that.

I will not mention the similar plight of the Roma people, who no one saw fit to give a country to after the Holocaust either.

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