U.S. eliminates human controls requirement for fully automated vehicles • Hacker News Board

Re: U.S. eliminates human controls requirement for fully automated vehicles

#151

Post by shadowgovt » Fri, Mar 11, 2022, 5:02 PM UTC

visarga wrote: post #128

piyh wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of my favorite youtubers did an hour long video on the trucker convoy from California to DC and it was a peak into another world. The thing I thought about after watching it was wondering what it looks like when that group has mass unemployment in 10 years. Truck driving employs 1% of the US population and if those jobs are lost to automation, there's no chance of them coming back like they did throughout other r…

People will run out of jobs only when they run out of needs and desires.

Human psychology is, unfortunately, more complicated than that.

There was an attempt in 2016 to prepare a program to retrain coal miners in center Pennsylvania and other traditional mining regions, as the general market, automation, and decrease in available coal from mining had made that a high-unemployment space. Job retraining was on the table.

People handily rejected it. They didn't want to do something else; they wanted to mine.

The children of professional drivers may find something else to do, but professional drivers are going to, on average, be most comfortable driving, and if there's no driving to be done we're on our way to system shock.

Re: U.S. eliminates human controls requirement for fully automated vehicles

#152

Post by dekhn » Fri, Mar 11, 2022, 5:03 PM UTC

bottled_poe wrote: post #69

walkhour wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Driving is already a Russian roulette right? If autonomous vehicles are safer than human drivers as advertised the barrel would just have more capacity.

Statistical equivalence is one thing, but the risk will shift within the population. Let’s set the bar a bit higher than above average ? The average driver is a dumbass. autonomous vehicles should be expected to consistently make better decisions than the best drivers, not just the average ones.

I would be perfectly happy if we had automatic drivers that were as good as the average human driver, since I already integrated and accepted that risk and accept it every time I drive. Why raise the bar for a new technology if that risks preventing it from being widely deployed and relentlessly improved?

Re: U.S. eliminates human controls requirement for fully automated vehicles

#153

Post by TameAntelope » Fri, Mar 11, 2022, 5:03 PM UTC

natch wrote: post #130

HPsquared wrote: post #3

I think any automated vehicle, no matter how advanced, should always have a big red button to make it stop whatever it's doing. Kind of like the emergency brake on a passenger train.

So if it was already in the midst of slowing down to pull over safely, pushing this big red button would do what, stop it suddenly in the middle of the road?

Yeah, in case the "safe pull over" spot is made of lava, or something.

Re: U.S. eliminates human controls requirement for fully automated vehicles

#154

Post by downut » Fri, Mar 11, 2022, 5:03 PM UTC

cj wrote: post #124

vmception wrote: post #122

I was at a crosswalk and saw a car with the big cameras on top coming Normally I walk and have confidence the human will stop and not want the consequences, or I at least make eye contact with the human driver for reassurance they will stop This time I ran, mumbling “self driving car fuck that”

Eye contact is also a major component of driving a motorcycle safely. When at an intersection, you know another car sees you by looking through their windshield and judging whether the person is distracted or if they're aware of your presence. It would really benefit motorcyclists, pedestrians, and other drivers if there were some mechanism for self-driving cars to visually and outwardly acknowledge your presence. Ho…

Avid bicyclist here. If I'm approaching an intersection with the possibility of conflicting with a motor vehicle even though I have clear right of way I stare at the driver's eyes. If he's not looking at me, I prepare for evasive action or possible emergency braking. Same for me going along my way and an oncoming MV turning left in front of/into me. I get a close call every year or two. I am very rude and they always are surprised I am angry...

No eyes no trust. Full automation is going to elevate the precedence of fallible motor vehicles over people with every right to the road even more. Great.

Re: U.S. eliminates human controls requirement for fully automated vehicles

#155

Post by knubie » Fri, Mar 11, 2022, 5:04 PM UTC

zekrioca wrote: post #29

The first sentence of this article has an interesting reading: "U.S. regulators on Thursday issued final rules eliminating the need for automated vehicle manufacturers to equip fully autonomous vehicles with manual driving controls to meet crash standards." It does sound like "U.S. regulators are removing regulations.", which does look like they are acting against themselves..

Are programmers removing code acting against themselves?

Re: U.S. eliminates human controls requirement for fully automated vehicles

#156

Post by reedjosh » Fri, Mar 11, 2022, 5:04 PM UTC

schleck8 wrote: post #14

firstSpeaker wrote: post #2

No steering wheels or brake pedals! Feels scary but we are giving technology way more control over our lives already :-).

After removing the steering wheel and making the car fully autonomous, I bet you'll have to pay a subscription for it to drive. And a subscription for a cellular service.

Why own anything?

https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/youll-own-nothing-and-be-happ...

The WEF thinks you shouldn't anyway.

Re: U.S. eliminates human controls requirement for fully automated vehicles

#157

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Mar 11, 2022, 5:04 PM UTC

ttmb wrote: post #92

pizza wrote: post #7

Reading between the lines here this just makes me think that the regulator has become captured by the industry. This is like removing human control on an autonomous Russian roulette revolver that shoots to the side if it detects a person in front of the barrel, then praying for the best.

This regulation is saying that if you did build an autonomous Russian roulette revolver, there's no requirement to outfit it with a pistol grip and a trigger. If there is a fully driverless (not driving itself with a human still in it) truck - as companies tell us is their goal - it does not increase or decrease safety to have or not have a seat and a steering wheel in it. The argument here is that building an autono…

[deleted]

Re: U.S. eliminates human controls requirement for fully automated vehicles

#158

Post by numpad0 » Fri, Mar 11, 2022, 5:05 PM UTC

Looks like the point of the change is that all-passenger hardware configuration is now allowed, just like there is no reason you can't make a tablet PC with no keyboard. Slightly different from "self driving cars are now allowed on the road".

Re: U.S. eliminates human controls requirement for fully automated vehicles

#159

Post by nobody9999 » Fri, Mar 11, 2022, 5:06 PM UTC

Communitivity wrote: post #120

This is problematic for a number of reasons. The most important in my mind is that the risk of the vehicle being hacked and carjacked remotely is always present. With the presence of an automation kill-switch and manual human controls the driver can always take back control. Without those, the driver is at the mercy of the hacker. Vehicle automation falls under the SCADA sub-domain of cyber-security. SCADA stands for…

>This is problematic for a number of reasons. The most important in my mind is that the risk of the vehicle being hacked and carjacked remotely is always present.

Which raises the question: "Why would we engineer vehicles to accept external network connections?"

Any communication to/from a vehicle should only be initiated by the vehicle itself. There's no reasonable criteria under which a vehicle should have its systems available to external sources.

Or am I missing something important?

Re: U.S. eliminates human controls requirement for fully automated vehicles

#160

Post by goodpoint » Fri, Mar 11, 2022, 5:06 PM UTC

dahfizz wrote: post #117

warmwaffles wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IF the car does hit the children even while driving autonomously the driver will be held responsible regardless of overrides. If someone dies, someone is going to jail until the justice system works through it.

Did you read the article? There is literally no steering wheel in an autonomous car. There is no "driver", only passengers. Even then, the car could drive itself without any passengers.

No steering wheel does not imply no responsibility.