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Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

reuters.com

351–360 of 735 posts

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#351

>Proponents say the law helps ensure Israel's security and maintains its "Jewish character". What the fuck?

>> Proponents say the law helps ensure Israel's security and maintains its "Jewish character".

> What the fuck?

Israel was founded as a state for the Jewish people, so they could have some political self-determination, which given their history, doesn't seem like a such bad thing. It would entirely subvert that if it became a state controlled by other kinds of people, like all other states in the world.

Let's say Muslim Arabs become the majority in Israel, wouldn't it then become the kind of place that the ancestors of the Jewish Israelis fled from (for good reason)? There are also literally dozens of other Muslim Arab states, so the transmogrification of Israel into another would be a net-negative for diversity.

IMHO the comparisons of Israel to apartheid break down because the motivations are different. IIRC, the South African whites wanted to maintain dominance over a big subject population, the Jewish Israelis just want a state for themselves.

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#353

We see more and more similar laws being passed in recent years, laws that are blatantly discriminatory. This may raise the indignation of many people, but in my opinion, Israel is shooting itself in the foot by passing these laws, because it reinforces the argument that it is an apartheid regime. Israel is slowly losing its support in the free democratic world where people believe in the inalienable universal rights…

Has Isreal ever had enough popular support to justify the massive amount of aid it is sent? It has governmental support, I don't think it needs the popular support

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#354
Consider the following word replacements.

[Ukraine/Israel] is established as an ethnic state after the end of the [Soviet/British] regime.

[Ukraine/Israel] passes laws to protect its language and national identity in the face of its neighboring [Russia/Arab states]

[Ukraine/Israel] is persecuting its [Russian/Arab] minorities by enacting discriminatory laws.

[Ukraine/Israel] does not recognize [DNR/Palestinian] statehood.

Obviously the parallels are not perfect, but the key is to understand that the Israeli right wing views Palestinians as Arabs, not as an independent nation, and views the establishment of the West Bank as a Jordanian/Arab land grab.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Arab_Republic

I’m not trying to assign right or wrong here, but trying to say that these sort of actions are not about pure evil racism than the outcome of regional conflict, and are much less one-dimensional than they are made out to be. As essentially all conflicts are. Racism/apartheid is one-dimensional, and this is not the same.

In other news, Israel appointed the first Muslim justice to its Supreme Court.

https://m.jpost.com/israel-news/article-698154/amp

Racism exists in Israel just as it does in America even though Barack Obama was elected president, and as it does in almost all countries. But its disingenuous to call Israel an apartheid state.

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#355
post #190

Here's an interesting exercise: 1. Substitute "Israel's Knesset" for ANY other legislative body anywhere. 2. Substitute "Palestinian" for ANY other nationality, ethnicity, race, sexual orientation, or other adjective describing a group to which YOU belong. 3. See if you like how it feels: "[Legislative body] passes law barring spouses who are [like you] from becoming citizens."

“Ukraine passes law barring spouses who are from Russia from becoming citizens” Seems fine to me.

A third of Ukrainians speak Russian as a first language. That really sounds fine to you?

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#356

Consider the following word replacements. [Ukraine/Israel] is established as an ethnic state after the end of the [Soviet/British] regime. [Ukraine/Israel] passes laws to protect its language and national identity in the face of its neighboring [Russia/Arab states] [Ukraine/Israel] is persecuting its [Russian/Arab] minorities by enacting discriminatory laws. [Ukraine/Israel] does not recognize [DNR/Palestinian] state…

> [Ukraine/Israel] is persecuting its [Russian/Arab] minorities by enacting discriminatory laws

The analogy doesn’t hold here. Ukraine shouldn’t persecute it’s Russian minority. (Hell, it’s Russian-speaking cities are lobbing Molotov cocktails at the invaders.)

And Palestine isn’t mounting an invasion of Israel, though if they had the capability, it’s uncertain they wouldn’t—the Arab nations tried twice.

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#357

Most comments here are attacking the decision, or just quoting the decision, and following it up by a "wtf". Just being shocked is not an argument. Jews are or have been persecuted in all middle eastern countries. What would happen if they were a minority in a democratic state in the Middle East? Why would it be different than in the other democracies in the Middle East? Laws like these lower the probability of Jews…

> Just being shocked is not an argument.

Most people don't feel the need to argue against openly legislated apartheid; we can just be shocked. If I see a car crash, I don't argue with it either.

Everybody understands that laws like this are essential for building up an ethnostate, but most people don't think that's a defense.

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same reason Russia is getting flak for invading and occupying territory (including, even, from Israel!) when Israel has illegally occupied the West Bank for decades with no consequences. Western countries apply their moral principles differently to their allies.

> Israel has illegally occupied the West Bank Did you forget the part where all Israel's neighbours attempted to invade it and ended up losing territory? Ukraine never attacked Russia on the other hand...

The government most certainly not. But the assertion by Russia is that the nazi nationalists attacked the separatists. Of course, you or I could say that’s complete bs. But then I would say the same about Israel’s claims about the beginnings of the intifadas.

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#359
post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Legally recognized multiple wives? Because according to the sources I can find, that has been illegal for decades, regardless of religion.

Me again. I just googled for "beduin polygamy in israel", try it and you'll find all you need. It is ostensibly illegal but impossible to enforce. You should know that it's not restricted to only Beduin, I recently was at a West Bank gas station talking to a guy (in Arabic) who has recently married his second wife. There are Beduins in the West Bank, but this guy wasn't Beduin.

> ostensibly illegal but impossible to enforce

Isn’t it quite simple to enforce when it comes to naturalisation?

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#360

Most comments here are attacking the decision, or just quoting the decision, and following it up by a "wtf". Just being shocked is not an argument. Jews are or have been persecuted in all middle eastern countries. What would happen if they were a minority in a democratic state in the Middle East? Why would it be different than in the other democracies in the Middle East? Laws like these lower the probability of Jews…

Advocates for Israel like to use other middle eastern states to excuse all sorts of behavior.

The problem is that they try to have their cake and eat it to with these comparisons.

“Israel is the only democratic state in the Middle East!” -but the systematically control the non Jewish population.

Israel wants to display itself as the image of a society that has the same values as western states, while practicing the same things that are supposedly abhorrent by it’s neighbors.

So which is it? Is Israel a democratic state, or a Jewish nation state? Because it can’t be both.

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