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Old Age and Creativity

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21–30 of 75 posts

Re: Old Age and Creativity

#21
post #8

An interesting observation from an inside perspective. I was aware of a few physicists who had "peaked" early in their careers, Einstein was a prominent example. That poets show the same pattern is something I just learned. About painters and other visual artists, it's true that many were still working and producing in their final years. OTOH it was often the case that in old age they worked in relative obscurity as…

To me, is a society and ego issue.

When you're 20-30 something and a nobody in your field, but a privileged mind, you keep your eyes open to all posibilities. You are hardworking and then results come.

Then you gain a name and have all eyes on you and your mental processes change. Suddenly with your opinions, you've got a reputation to defend. You're aware of those supporting you and those who are not. You're reasoning gets blurred by your ego and personality. Once you publicly speak an opinion on a topic for enough time, you cannot simply go back without looking like a moron.

There are several instances of the most brilliant minds following this pattern. Geniuses giving their backs to the scientific method, to all evidence, and looking like amateurs.

Comes to mind Einstein, spending his last years trying to debunk quantum physics against all evidence, Linus Pauling and his C-Vitamin craze or Nikola Tesla and his every time crazier projects with no practical viability. I guess there might be more.

Re: Old Age and Creativity

#22
post #8

An interesting observation from an inside perspective. I was aware of a few physicists who had "peaked" early in their careers, Einstein was a prominent example. That poets show the same pattern is something I just learned. About painters and other visual artists, it's true that many were still working and producing in their final years. OTOH it was often the case that in old age they worked in relative obscurity as…

My personal theory on early peaking in physics and math is that the best proxy for intelligence, working memory, begins to measurably decline in your 40s. It likely begins to decline even prior to that, as our ability to measure it is very rough and imprecise, which seems to align well with ages when physics/math geniuses peak, ~30s.

I had the same opinion as you for some time, but I'm reconsidering that stance since I went back to university in my 40s. To say I have a very bad working memory is an understatement. I'm distracted by just about anything (like now by the noisy neighborhood) and it has been like this "forever". Still, I was able to graduate with honors and outperform the students with an impressive working memory, even in projects involving creativity.

Re: Old Age and Creativity

#24
post #8

An interesting observation from an inside perspective. I was aware of a few physicists who had "peaked" early in their careers, Einstein was a prominent example. That poets show the same pattern is something I just learned. About painters and other visual artists, it's true that many were still working and producing in their final years. OTOH it was often the case that in old age they worked in relative obscurity as…

To me, is a society and ego issue. When you're 20-30 something and a nobody in your field, but a privileged mind, you keep your eyes open to all posibilities. You are hardworking and then results come. Then you gain a name and have all eyes on you and your mental processes change. Suddenly with your opinions, you've got a reputation to defend. You're aware of those supporting you and those who are not. You're reasoni…

> Nikola Tesla and his every time crazier projects with no practical viability

I’m not sure this had to do with ego. He just seems to have enjoyed building crazy stuff.

Re: Old Age and Creativity

#25
post #8

An interesting observation from an inside perspective. I was aware of a few physicists who had "peaked" early in their careers, Einstein was a prominent example. That poets show the same pattern is something I just learned. About painters and other visual artists, it's true that many were still working and producing in their final years. OTOH it was often the case that in old age they worked in relative obscurity as…

My personal theory on early peaking in physics and math is that the best proxy for intelligence, working memory, begins to measurably decline in your 40s. It likely begins to decline even prior to that, as our ability to measure it is very rough and imprecise, which seems to align well with ages when physics/math geniuses peak, ~30s.

I'm an aging (late 30s) writer with a fair amount of mathematical exposure, so let me give my perspective.

There's a tendency for exceptions to drive the narrative, which leads to a sense of mathematicians peaking earlier than they actually do. Mathematicans do indeed peak "young", relative to other fields, but most often in their early to mid 40s. Of course, at that point they're ineligible for the Fields Medal, but that doesn't mean they're no longer productive.

Writers peak around 55, but the drop-off can be steep, not because they lose the ability to write, but because revision and publishing can themselves be brutal processes. Revision is brutal because of perfectionism combined with the inability to hold a whole book's worth of context in your head. You can't look at the whole thing in one sitting, as with a painting. You have to edit at specific levels (themes and story arcs; then subplots and characters; then scene structure and transitions; then paragraphing and flow; then line edits; then copy edits; then grammar) but they sometimes compete for your attention. Writing work that's good enough to publish and sell is easy; writing work of literary quality is much harder. Publishing... well that changes every generation. These days, self-publishing is the right play for 99% of authors, but that brings its own challenges.

With age, the thing that gets hard the quickest is long-form context switching. Very few people can (or want to, or should) dedicate their lives wholesale to one pursuit. Once you start to get recognition and are invited to the parties, it gets harder to focus on writing. You spend a lot of time around non-serious players, and you become one. Lots of people turn stupid once they get popular and spend too much time with the fun people to have real thoughts anymore, and that's certainly not limited to the old. The difference is that the young can retool themselves more quickly. A 27-year-old can bounce back; he can be on cocaine-fueled benders in January, courting the nonserious players necessary to get the "tastemakers" to support one's career, and be back in his writing room by March or April. When you're older, this gets a lot harder. Older people are great when they establish momentum (leading me to question the "old people are less creative" hypothesis) but do not bounce back as well from periods of distraction or excessive comfort.

Re: Old Age and Creativity

#26
post #17

> He drew some surprising conclusions: the writers were less likely to carry on, whereas some of the greatest artists, Michelangelo, Titian [etc.], became, if anything, more productive and liberated from convention as they went into old age This seems pretty arbitrary and anecdotal, and there are famous counterexamples. In French, Saint-Simon (the memorialist, not the economist) wrote his masterpiece of over 3 millio…

>This seems pretty arbitrary and anecdotal, and there are famous counterexamples

It's summing up a rather lengthy lecture in one sentence, and it fully admits to exceptions. The lecture's theme seems to be that an artist usually loves to work in their medium, while a writer rarely finds the same joy in the pen/typewriter.

https://www.amacad.org/publication/artist-grows-old

Re: Old Age and Creativity

#27
post #8

An interesting observation from an inside perspective. I was aware of a few physicists who had "peaked" early in their careers, Einstein was a prominent example. That poets show the same pattern is something I just learned. About painters and other visual artists, it's true that many were still working and producing in their final years. OTOH it was often the case that in old age they worked in relative obscurity as…

To me, is a society and ego issue. When you're 20-30 something and a nobody in your field, but a privileged mind, you keep your eyes open to all posibilities. You are hardworking and then results come. Then you gain a name and have all eyes on you and your mental processes change. Suddenly with your opinions, you've got a reputation to defend. You're aware of those supporting you and those who are not. You're reasoni…

Your theory is reasonable and probably partially correct, but the Einstein example is quite a simplification.

I suspect the ego/arrogance thing works both ways. When you're younger you're often more willing to show the finger to existing paradigms and are perhaps arrogant enough to think you can "revolutionize physics." Naturally, most people can't do that but some make history.

(Also, I'm talking out of my ass and should probably add some history of science to my reading stack).

Re: Old Age and Creativity

#28
post #17

> He drew some surprising conclusions: the writers were less likely to carry on, whereas some of the greatest artists, Michelangelo, Titian [etc.], became, if anything, more productive and liberated from convention as they went into old age This seems pretty arbitrary and anecdotal, and there are famous counterexamples. In French, Saint-Simon (the memorialist, not the economist) wrote his masterpiece of over 3 millio…

Just two other examples:

Goethe: West–Eastern Diwan (age 70), Wilhelm Meister's Journeyman Years (age 72) Marienbad Elegy (age 73).

Thomas Mann: Doctor Faustus (age 72)

I have randomly picked a few people from the list of Nobel Prize Laureates in Literature[1] who have made it to old age, and most of them seem to have been quite productive even then.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nobel_laureates_in_Lit...

Re: Old Age and Creativity

#29
post #17

> He drew some surprising conclusions: the writers were less likely to carry on, whereas some of the greatest artists, Michelangelo, Titian [etc.], became, if anything, more productive and liberated from convention as they went into old age This seems pretty arbitrary and anecdotal, and there are famous counterexamples. In French, Saint-Simon (the memorialist, not the economist) wrote his masterpiece of over 3 millio…

>This seems pretty arbitrary and anecdotal, and there are famous counterexamples It's summing up a rather lengthy lecture in one sentence, and it fully admits to exceptions. The lecture's theme seems to be that an artist usually loves to work in their medium, while a writer rarely finds the same joy in the pen/typewriter. https://www.amacad.org/publication/artist-grows-old

Ah thank you, I couldn't immediately find the text of the lecture. Will read it now!

I think it's true that many writers hate writing, and that's not the same with performers. I said as much here, about a year ago https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27114757

Curious to see if the lecture offers some kind of explanation.

Re: Old Age and Creativity

#30
post #5

what, no, strongly disagree. It is true that a lot of science is made whilst young and this is more likely due to the fact that they had a lot of time, no family, or kids, also you are unconstrained by the weight of your own wisdom. Correlation does not imply causation

>also you are unconstrained by the weight of your own wisdom. sounds like a creative way of saying that old age depletes creativity.

Damming a river does not deplete the amount of water in the river, it only constrains its flow.
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