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P(we hire you) =~ 0.0016

davidlynch.org

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Re: P(we hire you) =~ 0.0016

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post #8

You have two steps round the wrong way: 1. Do the phone screen first. Frankly, in my experience, you can filter out a lot of people in the first minute; and 2. Then do the test. Speaking of the test, I had a quick look and it takes time. How much time? I'm not sure as I didn't look at the starting code, just the list of tasks. Maybe it only takes 30 minutes. Maybe it might take hours. I really don't know. Either way,…

>One reason Google is so selective is we take employment seriously. Leaks and criminal offences notwithstanding, it's actually pretty hard to get fired from Google and those decisions are not made lightly. That may have some negative side effects but overall I think it's a good thing that engineers aren't constantly worried about being fired. There are employees who place a very high value on job stability. In the ge…

What you are describing is the difference between a standing army and mercenaries. Chris Dixon [1] describes it succintly:

> Generally speaking, there are two approaches to relating to other people in the business world. The first approach is transactional and legalistic: work is primarily an exchange of labor for money, and agreements are made via contracts. Enforcement is provided by organizations, especially the legal system. The second approach relies on trust, verbal agreements, reputation and norms, and looks to the community to provide enforcement when necessary.

Now I'll certainly agree many employers pay lip service to "loyalty" as a means of controlling costs and turnover without it being in the least bit reciprocal.

So while this may not be your typical experience (it certainly isn't mine) I can tell you from experience that Google takes this pretty seriously.

That all being said, you are basically a fair weather friend and, to be perfectly honest, you'll never see the rewards that only come from sticking through the hard times, which is actually your loss (IMHO).

[1]: http://cdixon.org/2009/10/23/twelve-months-notice/

Re: P(we hire you) =~ 0.0016

#72
post #71
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>One reason Google is so selective is we take employment seriously. Leaks and criminal offences notwithstanding, it's actually pretty hard to get fired from Google and those decisions are not made lightly. That may have some negative side effects but overall I think it's a good thing that engineers aren't constantly worried about being fired. There are employees who place a very high value on job stability. In the ge…

What you are describing is the difference between a standing army and mercenaries. Chris Dixon [1] describes it succintly: > Generally speaking, there are two approaches to relating to other people in the business world. The first approach is transactional and legalistic: work is primarily an exchange of labor for money, and agreements are made via contracts. Enforcement is provided by organizations, especially the l…

>That all being said, you are basically a fair weather friend and, to be perfectly honest, you'll never see the rewards that only come from sticking through the hard times, which is actually your loss (IMHO).

Can you really be "Friends" with an entity who has a legal responsibility to "increase shareholder value?" I mean, sure, I have a relationship with the corporation, and there is trust involved (well, mostly they are trusting me. I'm just trusting them to deliver up my paycheck, and while they are usually late, I almost always get paid in the end, so they are trusting me a lot more than I am trusting them.) but yeah, I don't think I can say I'm friends with a legal fiction.

I think that if google falls upon hard times, you will see that they are also "fair weather friends" - It's possible that google employees, after being shown such kindness and loyalty during the good times, will feel very betrayed.

And rewards? What rewards? It's very rare that employees get substantial rewards when the business does well. It happened with google, yes, but that's the exception, not the rule.

But then, really, I don't actually want to be an employee. Right now, I'm not. (I mean, technically I'm an employee of prgmr.com, but I'm also the majority shareholder, so I don't think that counts.) But, sometimes I need more money than I can earn on my own (I'm not a very good business person) and in those cases, I usually look for short-term work.

The thing is, short-term work is pretty miserable for people who actually want to be part of the family (or, as you said, the standing army. An apt description; The thing that scares me the most about enlisting would be the fact that you can't quit.) They feel like they are being used and abused. And sometimes, companies need short-term work. It's hard, really, to go tell someone who is the type that expects loyalty "Hey, you- help us evaluate these outsourcing companies that will do your job after we fire you." or "go write an automation system that will mean we can fire 4/5ths of the people on your team" But a mercenary? sure, why not. I want to be here forever even less than you want me to be here forever.

When I do work for other people, the best case, I think, both for me and the employer is if the employer needs someone short-term; One of my more recent consulting gigs, the client was trying to outsource their linux SysAdmin stuff, and they were kissing a lot of frogs. They needed someone in-house to help meanwhile, but it was clear they were going to drop that position as soon as they found the right foreign contracting company. It was win-win for me, 'cause I wanted some cash to spend on my own projects, and I didn't harbor bad feelings towards the people who they were trying to get to replace me. The job lasted longer than expected (oh man, so many frogs!) but they eventually found a company out of mexico that was pretty good, and told me thanks.

I mean, there is certainly room for both in the marketplace. for some roles, you really want someone who will stick with your company through thick and thin. But those same people generally do badly in roles like the above where you are essentially asking someone to help you fire them, or where it's glaringly obvious that the job will end shortly.

>1]: http://cdixon.org/2009/10/23/twelve-months-notice/

Personally, I disagree with Cdixon there; I think a loyal employee is far more likely to sue an employer if things go south than a mercenary. I just want to get paid; There's rarely more than a months worth of compensation on the table, and that's not a lot of lawyer time. By becoming a contractor, we give up almost all the rights normal employees have. Contractors, especially direct contractors are often in a better position to cause legal trouble than employees; the IRS is very liberal in what it defines as an employee, and very conservative in what it defines as a contractor. As a contractor, you don't threaten to sue just like you don't threaten to bring a gun to work and start shooting.

But employees? It seems like one out of five employees who expected loyalty seem to think they have some sort of discrimination lawsuit even when they get the sweet, sweet first round of layoffs; the one with the nice severance packages.

Mercenaries also operate on trust. How do you think I'd get my next gig if I sued the last guy? Trust and reputation are essential to getting new gigs. If you want to be literal about the mercenary bit, you aren't going to hire me if you think that I'm going to come back and sack your city after I've done the bit you've hired me for.

I'd argue that a reputation for being litigious is almost a 'never work again' thing for a contractor, and we know it, while most employees seem to think they have "rights" they can assert without consequence.

And really, helping people after the layoffs, I think, is largely a "how do you want to be perceived" thing; I know once I was stepping down my own company and had to get rid of someone. I ended up switching jobs myself, and recommending my employee to the old employer. He got the job (and a massive raise over what I paid him) and the old employer was really happy. They gave me several other gigs down the line, and the guy who worked for me has recommended other employees to me since then. Trust and honesty are important on both sides, and when you do need to fire someone, if you can soften the blow, do so. At smaller companies, it really does make sense to help employees get other jobs; it usually makes the employee feel better than severance, it's usually cheaper than severance, and you get goodwill from the new employer on top of all that.

At larger companies, it seems, giving people some cash and maybe some retraining is probably the best you are going to do, but that's still important. The people who continue working there don't magically stop talking to the people you fired after the layoffs; and you are expecting the remaining people to work harder than they were before, so if you don't want your best people to jump ship, you want to make them think that they will be taken care of if they are caught in the next round. Of course, the deceptive bit of this is that usually by the second or third round, when you are letting your better people go, there isn't enough cash left to give good severance pay.

But yeah. I dono. It is possible that my attitude makes me a worse leader. A more honest leader, but maybe worse. I don't understand it when people give me loyalty. My employee has worked for me far longer than I expected. He is currently interviewing at google, and he tells me he feels like he is betraying me. (google approached him, not the other way around.) From my point of view, this is just the way things work. I hire less experienced people, give them some training, and then as they gain experience, they move on to bigger and better things. At this point, the guy is better than I am in a few areas; I would have expected him to leave more than a year ago. Getting mad about someone leaving me for a substantial raise would be about as rational as getting mad at the rain for making my roof leak. Rain happens; If the roof leaks, that's on me.

Re: P(we hire you) =~ 0.0016

#73

P(I'm impressed) ~= Nope Turning down a lot of candidates is not the same as finding good candidates. If you are turning down that many applicants, all it means is that your applicant pool is almost entirely bad candidates. That merely implies you are failing where it matters most, getting awesome candidates interested and excited about working for you. I bet you could drive the P down even more. You could write wors…

All applicant pools are almost entirely bad candidates. If you got every single good hacker looking for a job to apply (very unlikely) you would still be left with an applicant pool of mostly people that suck (By the way, the worst place to hire people is actually not Monster, it's job fairs where all the people who can't hold down a regular job go).
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