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Facebook claims it does not track users, but files patent to do same

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Re: Facebook claims it does not track users, but files patent to do same

#41

Post by 3am »

alexgartrell wrote: post #38
fauigerzigerk wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both reasons imply an intention to track users. But there is a third possibility. They could have patented it because they are so convinced that user tracking across websites is evil that they want to save the world from it by preventing others from ever doing it. After all a company that has 600 million users has a responsibility to make sure all these people are not put in harm's way. Just imagine how Mark Zuckerbe…

I'd like to try to respond to this, but I can't, because you've gone out of your way to obscure whatever point you have with three paragraphs of ultra-sarcastic nonsense. Fundamentally though, I think your point is, "I don't trust Facebook because of statements and privacy mistakes they've made in the past." That's a fine opinion to have (even though I obviously don't agree with it), so please, for the sake of discus…

The abuse of Occam's razor in this discussion warrants that level of sarcasm.

And speaking of obscured points, what are you trying to say? Are you saying Facebook is _not_ working on an ad network that does cross domain tracking of users and displays ads based on social graph data, and this is simply a defensive patent? Or are you saying they are developing this feature, but we should trust your company to not abuse it?

Re: Facebook claims it does not track users, but files patent to do same

#43

Post by anfedorov »

I think the context is slightly different: when an employee says "we do not track users on other domains", he means that they don't record your loading of a page with a "Like" button, even though they could. The patent claim is for a system with facebook "receiving one or more communications from a third-party website [containing] an action taken by a user", which they then incorporate into their ad-serving wizardry.

This could be quite interesting, actually: imagine facebook launches a system where any third-party website can give it a stream of "actions" taken by facebook's users, and pay them based on how good the data are for predicting ad preference. Site owners would then have a financial incentive to report to facebook every single thing their users do.

Imagine if HN did this, reporting to facebook the literacy level of your comments, the speed at which you read the comments, what subjects you spend the most time reading, what you comment on, etc.

Re: Facebook claims it does not track users, but files patent to do same

#44

Post by dustingetz »

patent registration is the nash equilibrium of the current US legal climate. patent collections are ammo in corporate wargames.

facebook does all sorts of evil like releasing full user history without a subpeona, but the OP's tone and these comments are FUD. bad.

Re: Facebook claims it does not track users, but files patent to do same

#45

Post by fauigerzigerk »

alexgartrell wrote: post #38
fauigerzigerk wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both reasons imply an intention to track users. But there is a third possibility. They could have patented it because they are so convinced that user tracking across websites is evil that they want to save the world from it by preventing others from ever doing it. After all a company that has 600 million users has a responsibility to make sure all these people are not put in harm's way. Just imagine how Mark Zuckerbe…

I'd like to try to respond to this, but I can't, because you've gone out of your way to obscure whatever point you have with three paragraphs of ultra-sarcastic nonsense. Fundamentally though, I think your point is, "I don't trust Facebook because of statements and privacy mistakes they've made in the past." That's a fine opinion to have (even though I obviously don't agree with it), so please, for the sake of discus…

No, my point is not that I don't trust Facebook and I don't think they have made a single honest mistake. My point is that their intentions and interests are a logical consequence of their business model. Claiming to have no interest in collecting as much information as possible about their users is absurd because that is what they sell.

The reality is also plain to see for anyone who knows the least bit about web technologies. The way they designed their like button, their logout, their privacy defaults, etc is just too obvious and their public lies are a calculated attempt to mislead people who don't have a clue how these things work.

Re: Facebook claims it does not track users, but files patent to do same

#46

Post by Hayes »

We could use this thread to give some feedback back to Facebook. They'll hear it and might even listen. Because this isn't black and white. All the web developers on here "track users" on their websites, it can be as mild as logging for AB testing. Facebook is now needing to do this across domains because their application extends across domains. Where do you draw the line?

Re: Facebook claims it does not track users, but files patent to do same

#47

Post by alexgartrell »

3am wrote: post #41
alexgartrell wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to try to respond to this, but I can't, because you've gone out of your way to obscure whatever point you have with three paragraphs of ultra-sarcastic nonsense. Fundamentally though, I think your point is, "I don't trust Facebook because of statements and privacy mistakes they've made in the past." That's a fine opinion to have (even though I obviously don't agree with it), so please, for the sake of discus…

The abuse of Occam's razor in this discussion warrants that level of sarcasm. And speaking of obscured points, what are you trying to say? Are you saying Facebook is _not_ working on an ad network that does cross domain tracking of users and displays ads based on social graph data, and this is simply a defensive patent? Or are you saying they are developing this feature, but we should trust your company to not abuse…

All I was trying to say was that there are reasons beyond desire to implement a product that would make a company file for a patent. I don't know anything about any product designed to do this, but I also don't know everything about every product at Facebook (it'd be impossible to get my own work done if that were the case).

Re: Facebook claims it does not track users, but files patent to do same

#48

Post by Duff »

asto wrote: post #29
tokenadult wrote: post #21

As Confucius said, in one of his most famous take-downs, "始吾於人也、聽其言而信其行、今吾於人也、聽其言而觀其行。At first in dealing with people, I would hear their words and trust their deeds, but now my way of dealing with people is to hear their words and observe their deeds."

"hear their words"? Easier said than done. Here's a blog post I wrote about how the things they say aren't very consistent. http://blog.arunbalan.in/2011/09/28/hey-facebook-ive-got-a-q...

That's precisely the point. To adapt the lawyer joke:

Q: How do you tell that a Facebook spokesperson is lying? A: Check to see if his lips are moving.

Facebook has demonstrated on numerous occasions from the earliest days of the product that it holds user's privacy in contempt. What else do you need to know?

Re: Facebook claims it does not track users, but files patent to do same

#49

Post by Hayes »

Hayes wrote: post #46

We could use this thread to give some feedback back to Facebook. They'll hear it and might even listen. Because this isn't black and white. All the web developers on here "track users" on their websites, it can be as mild as logging for AB testing. Facebook is now needing to do this across domains because their application extends across domains. Where do you draw the line?

I mean, by the patent description couldn't this just be the ticker auto-sharing stuff?

I think something along the lines of what they've done where you have to approve a given app (or domain) before you can be tracked on it and maybe otherwise it logs things anonymously with a hashed UID like Facebook asks facebook app developers to do with all their logging.

Re: Facebook claims it does not track users, but files patent to do same

#50

Post by alexgartrell »

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #45
alexgartrell wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to try to respond to this, but I can't, because you've gone out of your way to obscure whatever point you have with three paragraphs of ultra-sarcastic nonsense. Fundamentally though, I think your point is, "I don't trust Facebook because of statements and privacy mistakes they've made in the past." That's a fine opinion to have (even though I obviously don't agree with it), so please, for the sake of discus…

No, my point is not that I don't trust Facebook and I don't think they have made a single honest mistake. My point is that their intentions and interests are a logical consequence of their business model. Claiming to have no interest in collecting as much information as possible about their users is absurd because that is what they sell. The reality is also plain to see for anyone who knows the least bit about web te…

Then why didn't you say that? You'd have cleanly communicated your point with minimal confusion, and it would have let us skip out on the snarky stuff.

Seriously, I'm not trying to be a Facebook PR drone here, I just want HN to not suck, and one of the reasons it didn't suck before was the lack of snarky crap.

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