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DuckDuckGo “down-rank sites associated with Russian disinformation”

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Re: DuckDuckGo “down-rank sites associated with Russian disinformation”

#381

Post by kube-system »

gruez wrote: post #362
kube-system wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have rediscovered why it is difficult to make a search engine. This is a problem that applies to all search results, not just politically charged content: human judgement is always required to write a search algorithm.

So where does that leave us? Everything is biased? What does that mean when applied to duckduckgo's tweet from 2019? It's just a hollow slogan? I'm not sure that changes the conclusion much. The first impression I got from reading the comment was that the tweet from 2019 was a hollow PR message that they don't stand behind.

> So where does that leave us? Everything is biased?

Yes, humans have biases. There's not a way around it.

> What does that mean when applied to duckduckgo's tweet from 2019?

Yes, that tweet is obviously a vague marketing message, but if you read the entire quote in context, it was in reference to filter-bubble biases. It wasn't a claim that DDG employees are somehow superhuman creatures immune to human biases. Obviously that's a ridiculous interpretation.

Here's the source, in context:

https://spreadprivacy.com/why-use-duckduckgo-instead-of-goog...

Re: DuckDuckGo “down-rank sites associated with Russian disinformation”

#382

Post by shadowgovt »

deltarholamda wrote: post #364
vkou wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's some kind of backroom secret that most media, US, Russian, or otherwise, is utter shit. It should be pretty evident from looking at its coverage of any subject of which you have a better-than-average understanding of, or from contrasting how media produced in different parts of the world looks at the same exact events. Or even from applying a little bit of critical thinking. From looking at what it…

>Unfortunately, the alternatives to mainstream media (Q-idiots, Zero Hedge, Info Wars, random dude with an opinionated blog, some pot comedian's podcast, viral memes on facebook, etc) The alternative to one source of dubious information is not another source of dubious information. The alternative is to have access to all sorts of information, and piece together what you think is true, using your own critical thinkin…

I think you're conflating "large coordinated action" with "the Internet." They look similar, but it's more that a critical mass of not-Russia is deciding to stand up to Russia because Russia's political action in this situation is some seriously beyond-the-pale early-20th-century war of conquest stuff.

There is some consolidation happening (mostly around the fact that a lot of the companies we regularly use are "Western" and most of the governments of the West have imposed sanctions on Russia that those companies have to comply with), but it's also a that the meme has taken hold that (a) Russia deserves to be opposed and (b) sanctions and cutting-off are an effective way to oppose them.

Re: DuckDuckGo “down-rank sites associated with Russian disinformation”

#383

Post by shadowgovt »

CWuestefeld wrote: post #80
enragedcacti wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don't understand this view point. Isn't a search engine's entire job to effectively 'censor' the parts of the internet that aren't relevant or helpful to your search query? Is it censorship for them to downrank flat-earth content when you are trying to learn about how to chart a flight? Flat-earthers certainly have a lot of ideas about how charting a course on a flat earth works but that doesn't mean it's he…

The announcement makes me suspect that it's down-ranking results not for what they are, but who it's from. That is, penalizing results based on their being from a disfavored source.

That's been a valid approach ever since expertsexchange.com dropped off the radar. It's one of the many tools in the toolbox for dealing with SEO games.

Re: DuckDuckGo “down-rank sites associated with Russian disinformation”

#385

Post by diputsmonro »

GauntletWizard wrote: post #243
diputsmonro wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is propaganda a "genuine result"? Yeah yeah, one person's truth is another person's propaganda and sometimes the lines are blurry. But cases like RT are pretty clear cut. Sometimes people actually do lie, and those lies are verifiable. Verifiable lies, and the sources who create them predictably and consistently, should not be considered a "genuine result" for a query regarding things that are happening right now. Pr…

Cases like RT are clear cut to you. Others have other opinions. I think that the Russian claims that Ukraine is harboring neo-nazis are significantly bunk and are poor excuse for the invasion, but I also think you can't deny that the Azov Brigade exists, and I want to hear the Russian take on that even if I think it's half lies.

Then you can still go over to rt.com and check that out for yourself. With your knowledge that it is half lies, you can be actively engaged and discerning. But those lies should not be easily accessible for the uninitiated who are just casually curious about current events.

Re: DuckDuckGo “down-rank sites associated with Russian disinformation”

#386

Post by AnthonyMouse »

colinmhayes wrote: post #327
spoils19 wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The free market will decide what's a valuable search result or not, and I trust the freedom and liberty of people over any kind of curated, mutated ranking system.

Is people choosing which search engine they use based off the results it returns not the free market in action?

Free markets require competition. Are there other search engines of similar quality that don't do this?

Re: DuckDuckGo “down-rank sites associated with Russian disinformation”

#387

Post by kweingar »

diputsmonro wrote: post #200
mattwilsonn888 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This word keeps coming in this comments section: "spam." Spam was never mentioned in the Tweet, the source of this discussion. In fact no one in the comments section is talking about spam either, unless its a pathetic debunking attempt. They are talking about genuine results being down-ranked based on their ideological, even morally unscrupulous content, and why that is harmful to intelligent people who don't need th…

Is propaganda a "genuine result"? Yeah yeah, one person's truth is another person's propaganda and sometimes the lines are blurry. But cases like RT are pretty clear cut. Sometimes people actually do lie, and those lies are verifiable. Verifiable lies, and the sources who create them predictably and consistently, should not be considered a "genuine result" for a query regarding things that are happening right now. Pr…

I think there is a conflation of literal fake news and propaganda. Propaganda can be subtle and not involve outright lies. A lot of propaganda consists of unsubstantiated rumors or speculation.

Sometimes it is helpful to read unsubstantiated rumors or speculation because it is notable. For example, the United States recently claimed that a foreign power was targeting its diplomats with a high powered microwave weapon. Substantial evidence was never produced, but American news media reported the story uncritically. I think that much of the reporting on this topic was disinformation or propaganda. At the same time, if I wanted to read about it, I would expect search engines not to make the editorial decision to censor this reporting. Even if it is disinformation, informed people should be aware of these accusations. In this case, I don’t expect the search engine to return the “truth” but rather “what is being said on this topic.”

Re: DuckDuckGo “down-rank sites associated with Russian disinformation”

#388

Post by nimbius »

Its really shocking to me just how many western companies have capitulated to the wholesale censorship and shunning of Russia for this war.

DDG and others snored through the bush era disinformation campaign that led to the war in Iraq that killed countless civilians, yet somehow have a sterling enough moral terpitude to suddenly care about truth now?

Re: DuckDuckGo “down-rank sites associated with Russian disinformation”

#389

Post by mardifoufs »

jaywalk wrote: post #286
kats wrote: post #168

DuckDuckGo is Bing, we know this because when Bing accidentally censored all image searches for "tank man", all image results disappeared from DuckDuckGo as well. Bing already announced that they were doing this, so maybe DuckDuckGo doesn't have any choice about it. https://www.reuters.com/business/media-telecom/microsoft-rem... > The company said it would not display any state-sponsored RT and Sputnik content, de-ra…

> maybe DuckDuckGo doesn't have any choice about it. Did you read the linked tweet? "At DuckDuckGo, we've been rolling out search updates that down-rank sites associated with Russian disinformation." Sounds like they very much had a choice, and chose censorship. If they didn't and are actually just subject to Bing's whims, then they're lying. Neither of those are good.

Implementing a context based downranking policy on the results when they use a search engine (Bing) over which they probably have almost 0 ability to tweak or fine tune before the query sounds like an incredibly hard thing to do. You'd have to do a lot of contextual analysis and understand not only the query but also all the results the API gives you, after the search is already done. That seems even more complicated than just having your own search algorithms at that point.

It's possible but it's hard to believe they'd go through that effort and coincidentally come up with something very similar to what Bing started doing too. I don't want to assume they are lying but this can very well be just an attempt at free PR when the truth could be just that it wasn't their decision at all. ddg does not seem to be very upfront over their almost total reliance on Bing in the first place.

I mean IIRC when the tank man picture disappeared from bing and thus from DDG too, duckduckgo acknowledged the problem but it didn't seem like they could do anything about it but wait until Bing fixes the issue.

Re: DuckDuckGo “down-rank sites associated with Russian disinformation”

#390

Post by belter »

gruez wrote: post #324
ScarletEmerald wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you trust a source of medical information less if it declined to present or link to information that breathing CO is healthy, drinking mineral spirits is fine, and handling mercury with bare skin is safe and fun?

>Would you trust a source of medical information less if it declined to present or link to information Unfortunately, there's a wide ecosystem of conspiracy minded sites that link to each other. They even have papers supporting them, eg. studies in favor of homeopathy https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9310601/

My favorite Randi joke about homeopathy...

"An homeopath died from overdose. He forgot to take his medicaments..."

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