Notes on Nationalism (1945) • Hacker News Board

Re: Notes on Nationalism (1945)

#221

Post by sangnoir » Wed, Mar 09, 2022, 5:54 PM UTC

systemvoltage wrote: post #214

sangnoir wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I want people to be able to call bullshit when it is. If only there was a universal catalog of "bullshit" things. Since there isn't, it's common for those out of tune with the majority in one aspect to dislike their opinions being called out as bullshit, subjectively.

Claim: 1+2 = 4 Me: Bullshit! It’s called logic and reasoning.

Not leaving room for nuance is bullshit. As an example, for manufacturing engineering, "1 + 2 = 4" may be well within the tolerances. So, it being bullshit depends on the error bars (I get it, some people don't believe in the existence of error bars)

Re: Notes on Nationalism (1945)

#222

Post by goodpoint » Thu, Mar 10, 2022, 1:08 PM UTC

FooBarBizBazz wrote: post #210

antifa wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The term red pill comes from The Matrix where the non-subtle metaphor is "want to know the truth? Take the red pill". There was no need to censor the term if that was the meaning. A group of people, often considered misogynists or anti-feminists, who think they have a secret truth about dating women, also use the term. There is also the subtle metaphor of The Matrix, that the redpill actual refers to transitioning in…

Oh, I see. I hear "red pill" and think politics. As in, "converted to the Trump side". It's all Gnostic stuff. Hiding pieces of the mystery religion maybe even makes it more appealing to converts.

The word you are looking for is not gnostic but "dog whistle"

Re: Notes on Nationalism (1945)

#223

Post by int_19h » Thu, Mar 10, 2022, 11:43 PM UTC

mantas wrote: post #193

int_19h wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a linear scale of smaller/larger tribe. You can preserve smaller tribes within larger, and those within larger still. What nation and nationalism brought to Europe is a series of wars that were as destructive as religious ones, at the time when religious fervor finally died down. And it is still doing more of that.

Which wars were brought to Europe by nationalism? WW1 was brought by multinational empires. WW2 was brought by SSRS and Nazi (National-socialists). Yugoslavia was an attempt to build multi-national pan-slavic empire as well. Historically imperialistic multi-national tribes try to build some sort of pseudo-national identity and erase small tribes. Be it SSRS with the new soviet man, Spain trying to incorporate Basques…

It's harder to name wars that weren't - and empires used nationalism to whip up war propaganda just as much as everybody else.

I find it particularly weird that you list WW2 as not brought by nationalism, given that Nazism is basically an extreme form of ethnic nationalism.

Re: Notes on Nationalism (1945)

#224

Post by FooBarBizBazz » Mon, Mar 14, 2022, 2:41 PM UTC

goodpoint wrote: post #222

FooBarBizBazz wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, I see. I hear "red pill" and think politics. As in, "converted to the Trump side". It's all Gnostic stuff. Hiding pieces of the mystery religion maybe even makes it more appealing to converts.

The word you are looking for is not gnostic but "dog whistle"

"Gnostic" as in hidden knowledge -- "You're really in the Matrix!" Surely that's what "red pill" is about(?); that's the film reference.

Though asterices could perhaps be a dog whistle too: "Only my desired recipients understand." A dog whistle of taboo gnosis.

(When you go to an art gallery you hear lots of dog whistles: The text describing each piece is full of strange word-patterns. Often the repetition or gratuitous insertion of an unexpected word, e.g. "bodies", often as a double- or triple- entendre. The cant(ations) are easy to notice, once you dwell on the strangeness and ask yourself: "Why are they talking like that?")

I suppose gnosis tends to live outside the Overton Window, thus would go hand-in-hand with dog-whistles. Related, the groups with this "knowledge" tend to have developed their own (incompatible) moralities -- and indeed, induction to such a group involves violation of the conventional morality (think killing a random person to enter a gang). "You can't leave us now; among the Others you'll feel guilt."

So these three go together: Gnosis, dog-whistles, and "righteous sin". I suppose the last one develops last.