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Man given genetically modified pig heart dies

bbc.com

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Re: Man given genetically modified pig heart dies

#91

Post by frenchy »

faeyanpiraat wrote: post #62
MPSimmons wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You probably know this, but for anyone else reading - I have an Apple watch that has the EKG. It is a two-contact EKG, so it's limited in what it can see. It also requires you to actively look at it (you have to touch the crown while it's reading). It did successfully diagnose a bout of bigeminy that I had, but unfortunately my cardiologist didn't think it was important, and I ended up having a heart attack anyway. B…

Isn't that something that you could sue for?

Maybe in the US, probably not anywhere else. You'd have to prove actual negligence, and in this case, it's quite possible the doctor's decision was reasonable. Benign abnormal heart behavior is pretty common.

Re: Man given genetically modified pig heart dies

#93

Post by wonderwonder »

faeyanpiraat wrote: post #62
MPSimmons wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You probably know this, but for anyone else reading - I have an Apple watch that has the EKG. It is a two-contact EKG, so it's limited in what it can see. It also requires you to actively look at it (you have to touch the crown while it's reading). It did successfully diagnose a bout of bigeminy that I had, but unfortunately my cardiologist didn't think it was important, and I ended up having a heart attack anyway. B…

Isn't that something that you could sue for?

Not a lawyer so this is only anecdotal but It is actually very hard to sue a doctor unless its egregious to my understanding and your rewards are limited to the point where most lawyers are hesitant to take the case due to that. Have a family member that got a colonoscopy and the doctor commented after that there was a bit of a tough time getting it in but he just pushed a little harder and all was fine. That push actually perforated the bowel and he got sepsis and spent 3 weeks in the hospital and many months with a coloscopy bag. No lawyer would take the case.

Re: Man given genetically modified pig heart dies

#94

Post by willis936 »

https://apnews.com/article/pig-heart-transplant-patient-dies...

>Bennett’s doctors said he had heart failure and an irregular heartbeat, plus a history of not complying with medical instructions.

>Patients may see Bennett’s death as suggesting a short life-expectancy from xenotransplantation, but the experience of one desperately ill person cannot predict how well this procedure ultimately will work, said ethics expert Karen Maschke of The Hastings Center. That will require careful studies of multiple patients with similar medical histories.

Re: Man given genetically modified pig heart dies

#95

Post by dheera »

slowhand09 wrote: post #5

My friend was a member of the transplant team at Johns Hopkins. "They" said he was near multiple organ failure prior to the transplant. And he survived significantly longer than expected. Recovery under those circumstances was a very long shot already. Kudos to him for undergoing the procedure, and furthering the research. Condolences to he and his family.

Well also, condolences to Edward Shumaker, who he murdered, and Edward's family. [0]

[0] https://www.wionews.com/world/patient-in-ground-breaking-hea...

Re: Man given genetically modified pig heart dies

#96

Post by phkahler »

gpm wrote: post #88
Jabbles wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"What people die of" seems like the sort of question the medical community should be quite good at answering. People are waiting for human heart transplants and dying from the wait. I don't think there will be a shortage of patients who we can ethically treat whilst researching this new technique. It certainly isn't binary with a hard "sensitive line".

> "What people die of" seems like the sort of question the medical community should be quite good at answering. Does it? I'm definitely not a doctor, but it seems like a very difficult question to answer. Even with perfect information, it seems unlikely there is always a simple/single answer. I would naively expect things like (and I'm making a bit up here, because I'm really not a doctor) "not enough oxygen reached…

That's why I'm noticing studies that use "all cause mortality". In other words, some people receive X treatment and a similar control group does not. Then you look at how many died in each group regardless of cause because it's just too difficult (and death is pretty much a binary measure). For example, cholesterol lowering drugs (I don't have a source) seem to have no impact on all-cause-mortality, suggesting a failure in our understanding.

Re: Man given genetically modified pig heart dies

#97

Post by kyleee »

als0 wrote: post #81
faeyanpiraat wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that something that you could sue for?

I do wonder how it must feel to be a doctor who is one bad call away from being sued or revoked.

what's the alternative in practice; having no recourse if a negligent doctor maims or kills you?

Re: Man given genetically modified pig heart dies

#98

Post by data_acquired »

gpm wrote: post #88
Jabbles wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"What people die of" seems like the sort of question the medical community should be quite good at answering. People are waiting for human heart transplants and dying from the wait. I don't think there will be a shortage of patients who we can ethically treat whilst researching this new technique. It certainly isn't binary with a hard "sensitive line".

> "What people die of" seems like the sort of question the medical community should be quite good at answering. Does it? I'm definitely not a doctor, but it seems like a very difficult question to answer. Even with perfect information, it seems unlikely there is always a simple/single answer. I would naively expect things like (and I'm making a bit up here, because I'm really not a doctor) "not enough oxygen reached…

One of Atul Gawande's books (Complications) mentions that amongst deaths where an autopsy is done, the cause of death was misdiagnosed by the doctor about 40% of the time. Quote from book [Page 197, Chapter name : "Final Cut"] ---

"How often do autopsies turn up a major misdiagnosis in the cause of death? I would have guessed this happened rarely, in 1 or 2 percent of cases at most. According to three studies done in 1998 and 1999, however, the figure is about 40 percent."

Re: Man given genetically modified pig heart dies

#100

Post by diego_sandoval »

phkahler wrote: post #44
slowhand09 wrote: post #5

My friend was a member of the transplant team at Johns Hopkins. "They" said he was near multiple organ failure prior to the transplant. And he survived significantly longer than expected. Recovery under those circumstances was a very long shot already. Kudos to him for undergoing the procedure, and furthering the research. Condolences to he and his family.

Well that really raises the question of what did he die from? If not from the heart, how do they proceed with the research? Gotta do the next one on a person whose not already nearly gone. That seems like a highly sensitive line, no doubt it's a big discussion to move it.

My uneducated guess:

If he had survived for a long time, we would have known that it worked. He didn't survive, so we didn't learn much.

If we try with enough people who are as critical as him, eventually one could survive and we would know that the procedure works for at least some people.

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