The Lie That Made Me • Hacker News Board

Re: The Lie That Made Me

#11

Post by anonporridge » Wed, Mar 09, 2022, 7:22 PM UTC

tomrod wrote: post #9

23andMe and similar services, though creepy to a degree to have your genetic information linked and profiled, have spawned a minor industry of social and familial alignment. Half-siblings and half-aunts/uncles are being found to be more common than people realized. The convergence of technology and society is fascinating. This was an interested read on the mispractice of a fertility doctor.

I'm honestly a little worried about the social fracturing that could happen as genetic and paternity testing get increasingly cheap and ubiquitous.

My intuition is that infidelity and paternity fraud is wildly more common than anyone wants to believe, and old social orders will break down as it becomes impossible to ignore and trivial for even light suspicions to be validated.

I have to believe it's good in the long run, because I think any order built on the foundation of deception is inherently fragile and ultimately doomed. There's a stronger order on the other side, but potential chaos through the transition.

Re: The Lie That Made Me

#12

Post by worik » Wed, Mar 09, 2022, 7:22 PM UTC

reactspa wrote: post #2

Quoted post unavailable.

anonymous sperm donation has been a bit of a disaster.

It matters who your father is. For emotional reasons, and for medical ones.

Collecting sperm off young men for $50 a pop is madness. And it seems that young men know it and do not donate. Hence the deception layered over the badness of the whole idea.

I do not think that understanding who your family is is a particularly "western" preoccupation.

Re: The Lie That Made Me

#13

Post by mcphage » Wed, Mar 09, 2022, 7:25 PM UTC

reactspa wrote: post #2

Quoted post unavailable.

> It was supposed to be an anonymous donor.

The donor was supposed to be anonymous, but not random. You don't know their name, but you do learn things about them, and you pick the donor because of those things you were told. And in many cases here, what the recipient was told, was a lie.

Re: The Lie That Made Me

#14

Post by kryptiskt » Wed, Mar 09, 2022, 7:30 PM UTC

anonporridge wrote: post #11

tomrod wrote: post #9

23andMe and similar services, though creepy to a degree to have your genetic information linked and profiled, have spawned a minor industry of social and familial alignment. Half-siblings and half-aunts/uncles are being found to be more common than people realized. The convergence of technology and society is fascinating. This was an interested read on the mispractice of a fertility doctor.

I'm honestly a little worried about the social fracturing that could happen as genetic and paternity testing get increasingly cheap and ubiquitous. My intuition is that infidelity and paternity fraud is wildly more common than anyone wants to believe, and old social orders will break down as it becomes impossible to ignore and trivial for even light suspicions to be validated. I have to believe it's good in the long…

There was a study that showed that cuckoldry was pretty rare, the rate was around 1-2%[0]:

"Reading the internet, or even perusing the scientific literature, you'd get the idea that people are constantly cheating on their spouses. Indeed, scientists have estimated that anywhere from 10-30 percent of men are unknowingly raising children who are not their own. This situation is referred to as cuckoldry, or scientifically as "extra-pair paternity." Now, however, it appears that our estimates of cuckoldry rates were way off.

A new survey published in Trends in Ecology and Evolution sums up a number of recent studies that show the actual rate of cuckolds in the general population, based on genetic testing and ancestor research, is 1-2 percent. This challenges evolutionary psychologists who have suggested that human women "routinely ‘shop around’ for good genes by engaging in extra-pair copulation to obtain genetic benefits." This idea came in part from studying socially monogamous songbirds, which mate for life but have roughly 1 in 10 babies as a result of "extra pair" matings."

[0]: https://arstechnica.com/science/2016/04/cuckoldry-is-incredi...

Re: The Lie That Made Me

#15

Post by gowld » Wed, Mar 09, 2022, 7:39 PM UTC

kryptiskt wrote: post #14

anonporridge wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm honestly a little worried about the social fracturing that could happen as genetic and paternity testing get increasingly cheap and ubiquitous. My intuition is that infidelity and paternity fraud is wildly more common than anyone wants to believe, and old social orders will break down as it becomes impossible to ignore and trivial for even light suspicions to be validated. I have to believe it's good in the long…

There was a study that showed that cuckoldry was pretty rare, the rate was around 1-2%[0]: "Reading the internet, or even perusing the scientific literature, you'd get the idea that people are constantly cheating on their spouses. Indeed, scientists have estimated that anywhere from 10-30 percent of men are unknowingly raising children who are not their own. This situation is referred to as cuckoldry, or scientifical…

It could be that modern birth control has reduced the rate of extra-pair paternity, as sexual impulses have (partially) decoupled from procreation.

Re: The Lie That Made Me

#16

Post by gowld » Wed, Mar 09, 2022, 7:42 PM UTC

worik wrote: post #12

reactspa wrote: post #2

Quoted post unavailable.

anonymous sperm donation has been a bit of a disaster. It matters who your father is. For emotional reasons, and for medical ones. Collecting sperm off young men for $50 a pop is madness. And it seems that young men know it and do not donate. Hence the deception layered over the badness of the whole idea. I do not think that understanding who your family is is a particularly "western" preoccupation.

What's mad about it? Most people don't donate because they don't care (there are a lot of things I could do for $50 for a few hours of overhead and work), and there is plenty of supply from the people for whom $50 is worth paying attention to.

Re: The Lie That Made Me

#17

Post by anonporridge » Wed, Mar 09, 2022, 7:43 PM UTC

gowld wrote: post #15

kryptiskt wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a study that showed that cuckoldry was pretty rare, the rate was around 1-2%[0]: "Reading the internet, or even perusing the scientific literature, you'd get the idea that people are constantly cheating on their spouses. Indeed, scientists have estimated that anywhere from 10-30 percent of men are unknowingly raising children who are not their own. This situation is referred to as cuckoldry, or scientifical…

It could be that modern birth control has reduced the rate of extra-pair paternity, as sexual impulses have (partially) decoupled from procreation.

From the above article...

> Scientists were so unwilling to believe that human women were different from songbirds that some suggested the discrepancy between expected and actual rates of cuckoldry was a recent development caused by birth control.

It would be quite interesting to do a study on modern social groups where birth control isn't yet ubiquitous. It could be fairly easy to do this kind of study covertly and anonymize the source so as to not risk throwing it into disarray if the results come back with high rates of cuckoldery.

Re: The Lie That Made Me

#18

Post by einpoklum » Wed, Mar 09, 2022, 7:43 PM UTC

While that doctor's behavior was indeed utterly unacceptable, I'm not sure I understand the insistence on figuring out which sperm donation got you pregnant (if you're the mother) or who exactly your biological father is.

A hundred men donate sperm at some clinic, and then went on with their lives. If it were me, I doubt I would want to pick out one of them and try to pull them into my life. He hasn't done something significant distinguishing him from all the rest which merits this. At least - that's how I feel about it.

And after all, Penina (the mother) herself...

> worried such an arrangement [donation from a friend-of-a-friend] would be emotionally and legally fraught, especially if the man wished to be involved in the baby’s life.

Re: The Lie That Made Me

#19

Post by anonporridge » Wed, Mar 09, 2022, 7:47 PM UTC

kryptiskt wrote: post #14

anonporridge wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm honestly a little worried about the social fracturing that could happen as genetic and paternity testing get increasingly cheap and ubiquitous. My intuition is that infidelity and paternity fraud is wildly more common than anyone wants to believe, and old social orders will break down as it becomes impossible to ignore and trivial for even light suspicions to be validated. I have to believe it's good in the long…

There was a study that showed that cuckoldry was pretty rare, the rate was around 1-2%[0]: "Reading the internet, or even perusing the scientific literature, you'd get the idea that people are constantly cheating on their spouses. Indeed, scientists have estimated that anywhere from 10-30 percent of men are unknowingly raising children who are not their own. This situation is referred to as cuckoldry, or scientifical…

I'd love for this to be true, but it does conflict with various state policy decisions on the matter that seem to indicate at least a belief in the opposite. France's policy is particularly striking, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_paternity_testing#France

It is possible that state institutions make these policies based exactly on my assumption above, which seems like it could be incorrect. Or perhaps even 1-2% is still enough to cause significant social cost if easily exposed.

Re: The Lie That Made Me

#20

Post by invalidOrTaken » Wed, Mar 09, 2022, 7:50 PM UTC

anonporridge wrote: post #11

tomrod wrote: post #9

23andMe and similar services, though creepy to a degree to have your genetic information linked and profiled, have spawned a minor industry of social and familial alignment. Half-siblings and half-aunts/uncles are being found to be more common than people realized. The convergence of technology and society is fascinating. This was an interested read on the mispractice of a fertility doctor.

I'm honestly a little worried about the social fracturing that could happen as genetic and paternity testing get increasingly cheap and ubiquitous. My intuition is that infidelity and paternity fraud is wildly more common than anyone wants to believe, and old social orders will break down as it becomes impossible to ignore and trivial for even light suspicions to be validated. I have to believe it's good in the long…

Better to rip off the bandaid, honestly. Rather than old social orders breaking down, I think we'll see some of them strengthened, as the reasons for their institution in the first place get harder to ignore.