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The Great Cul-De-Sac Problem And How To Alleviate It.

chrisnorstrom.com

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Re: The Great Cul-De-Sac Problem And How To Alleviate It.

#51
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you/we trying to force density when it's so obvious that most people want the exact opposite? [edit] I had in a house in a great neighborhood in the city within walking distance of grocery, restaurants, buses, etc., and I still moved to the suburbs. Obviously density's not the only thing people want.

Is it obvious? Do the majority of the public understand the value of a well planned community or have the option to participate in one? Being walking distance to a grocery store is not the same thing as living in a transit-oriented region and living your entire life without dependence on a car. Suburbs were born from industry, not out of the realization of American's idealized community. I live in downtown Portland,…

And the thing is, Portland isn't even that dense of a city. As far as urban environments go, it's hardly Blade Runner. Plenty of detached homes with yards, parks, etc.

The idea that people have that we have to live like sardines in some anime-inspired megalopolis is simply inaccurate.

If everyone lived in cities as dense as portland, the current human population would only be living on about 2.7% of the world's land mass. Obviously, in terms of resources, it's more complicated than that, but it's clear that sprawling out is terrible for the environment, and that for true nature-lovers, it's much more advantageous to live in a city that has no suburbs, where the world of people truly ends at the city limits.

Re: The Great Cul-De-Sac Problem And How To Alleviate It.

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair. I have never lived outside of a city/town (>=200k). But living in suburbs "for the kids" (a big point of yours too) does not convince me. As a kid, I had a great time. With plenty of time outdoors too.

Do you live in North America? In most American metros to live in the city with kids you have to make enough money to easily afford expensive private school tuition. If your kid goes to the public school he will be beat up by black or hispanic gang members. This is probably 80% of the reason families rarely choose cities in America.

If your kid goes to the public school he will be beat up by black or hispanic gang members

That's a very alarmist statement that I'm afraid has no relationship with the experience of my friends who went to inner city schools with diverse populations (and yes, a number of gang members).

It's true that many inner city schools were defunded by capital flight to the suburbs. But the notion that they're all active warzones that only James Belushi or Michelle Pfeiffer can bring law and order to is a stereotype that needs to be put to rest.

Re: The Great Cul-De-Sac Problem And How To Alleviate It.

#53
To address a few of the myths:

Myth 1: Who is he to say how people feel about their neighborhood is nonsense? There are plenty where the neighbors know each other, their kids play, they have block parties and BBQs, and there's a strong fabric of trust. To pitch them all as "nonsense" is to sweep away all pretense of objectivity.

Myth 2: How much traffic someone gets varies widely with the street. In his red zone, I'd bet traffic is next-to-none on E. Radiom, Amona, E. Lemona, and Hallock; light on Nemo and Damson; medium on W. Radiom and W. Lemona; and "heavy" on the rest. But consider even Erie and Avila: no car would take both, and many will take neither; their realistic exposure is maybe 50-75 households? Compare that to a giant grid, where every street is a route to every other, and I don't think the outcome is clear at all. But it'd be dumb to get a house on N. Radio or N. Hale to avoid traffic, sure.

An added question is whether people speed more in a closed community or in a grid. Daily I see lots of people on main roads tear off onto residential streets to circumvent red lights, and the last thing they want to see when they meet back up with the artery is the people who waited, passing them by.

Myth 3: For the reasons above, less traffic traveling by my house -- which is clearly possible in these neighborhoods -- means less pollution in the form of noise, smoke, and gas fumes.

...

Not to say the grid system doesn't have its merits, and I agree on some of them. But I don't think I'd want to see either system entirely eliminated... much less with the presumption that there are just millions of closed-minded people out there who are dead wrong about where they want to live, because they're simply not as enlightened as your humble author.

Re: The Great Cul-De-Sac Problem And How To Alleviate It.

#55

To address a few of the myths: Myth 1: Who is he to say how people feel about their neighborhood is nonsense? There are plenty where the neighbors know each other, their kids play, they have block parties and BBQs, and there's a strong fabric of trust. To pitch them all as "nonsense" is to sweep away all pretense of objectivity. Myth 2: How much traffic someone gets varies widely with the street. In his red zone, I'd…

> An added question is whether people speed more in a closed community or in a grid.

I live on a cul de sac and not a day goes by that I don't see someone speeding through the stop sign a few houses down. The cul de sac is not what appealed to me about where I'm living, and I would gladly give it up so I could ride my bicycle unimpeded to the subway station that's nearby without being forced out to the major highway that runs through the area.

Re: The Great Cul-De-Sac Problem And How To Alleviate It.

#56

For some reason this link is forwarding to http://127.0.0.1/2011/10/the-great-cul-de-sac-problem-and-ho... . Any clue why, or how to fix it?

Probably misconfigured web server. Looks like they are using a reverse proxy that isn't setup right.

Nothing we can do, the person who runs the server needs to fix it.

Re: The Great Cul-De-Sac Problem And How To Alleviate It.

#57

For some reason this link is forwarding to http://127.0.0.1/2011/10/the-great-cul-de-sac-problem-and-ho... . Any clue why, or how to fix it?

Probably misconfigured web server. Looks like they are using a reverse proxy that isn't setup right. Nothing we can do, the person who runs the server needs to fix it.

The server crashed...

(per the site owner's words: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3061633)

Re: The Great Cul-De-Sac Problem And How To Alleviate It.

#58
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you live in North America? In most American metros to live in the city with kids you have to make enough money to easily afford expensive private school tuition. If your kid goes to the public school he will be beat up by black or hispanic gang members. This is probably 80% of the reason families rarely choose cities in America.

My wife taught at a 80% Hispanic majority high school in Dallas in the 90s. The gang violence on white kids thing just didn't happen there. Gangs, yes. Gang violence, no.

Did you send your kids there?

Re: The Great Cul-De-Sac Problem And How To Alleviate It.

#59

For some reason this link is forwarding to http://127.0.0.1/2011/10/the-great-cul-de-sac-problem-and-ho... . Any clue why, or how to fix it?

Hmm, thanks for posting that. I had the same problem. Good to know that I don't have anything malicious on my computer.

Re: The Great Cul-De-Sac Problem And How To Alleviate It.

#60

I grew up on a cul-de-sac. I knew all of my neighbors and it was a great environment for a kid to grow up in. We had a nearby woods, too. We often walked and rode bikes.

Problem is, as the article points out, cul-de-sacs impose substantial externalities on everyone else. It would be "a great environment" for me if everyone else rode bicycles and I drove—after all, I'd be very safe!—but it wouldn't be so great for everyone else.

That's an extreme example, but the principle remains.

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