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Steve Wozniak: Steve Jobs wasn’t a natural-born leader

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Re: Steve Wozniak: Steve Jobs wasn’t a natural-born leader

#41
post #2

What really set Steve Jobs apart is that he never should have gotten to where he did. I don't mean he didn't deserve it or anything but based on that structures that exist to filter people who attain the positions that he did. By luck, or accident, or raw determination, he became a person in the drivers seat that no one would have chose to put there. He was so much not the person they would have chosen that they kick…

No, it doesn't make Jobs remarkable, it makes him a toxic leader... a textbook one at that.

> treated people in ways they felt uncomfortable with and achieved things that people thought were out of reach.

The biggest misunderstanding about leadership from people and orgs who don't appreciate that it's a science vs. an art is that to do the impossible, to stretch orgs and do it in unorthodox fashions, that "make people uncomfortable," the Jobs-isms that made him awful part has to come along with it.

This is just patently untrue.

Where this trope comes from is understanding a bit more about toxic leadership. Toxic leaders tend to excel. They're very talented. They can produce. The thing is: they do it by shredding their teams. If the incentives are right and the feedback loops are a certain way, they'll rise all the way to the top (and possibly stay there) just on the back of their product/production sense, with a history of angry teams, colleagues, partners and "a rep." Just like jobs. That's all there is to it.

What's happened is the growth of a narrative, in part via posts like this to be respectfully candid, that the toxic stuff has to come with the unothordox/visionary leadership stuff. It really does not. Kevin Mandia (showing up in another thread today on HN) is a good counter-example. If it's a stretch to compare Mandia vs. Jobs, and it definitely is outside of a lab setting, look at the Google founding team's reps vs. Jobs, or the netscape crew vs. Gates.

Why this screed - leadership is important, and it's a science that goes beyond running on pure charisma or pure talent. Tech must learn it better.

Re: Steve Wozniak: Steve Jobs wasn’t a natural-born leader

#42
post #35
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree, Steve Jobs didn't luck out. Instead, he never went through the filters. Had he tried to become an Aircraft Engineer or a Doctor, he might get filtered out but he and Woz ventured into an unestablished field that was about to boom. There were no filters to keep him out and though he lacked a scholar formation he was exceptionally brilliant and managed to walk the path better than the most. Peter Thiel says…

I don’t agree with Thiel on a lot of things, but in this instance I do. When someone says “I’m very competitive,” I hear that they want to live inside boxes created by other people.

I'm on the same boat. Really not fan of him but his speech on the subject felt like someone put the words together about something that I was thinking on but couldn't pin it down.

Re: Steve Wozniak: Steve Jobs wasn’t a natural-born leader

#43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I disagree. I think Jobs personality was such that he would have either ended up founding a company (or perhaps ended up in prison for selling narcotics). I sense his manipulative personality (my words, for other's you can substitute "reality distortion field") was always there. I'm not disputing Wozniak of course, but I think Jobs growth was in learning how to channel that personality toward selling product.…

> Jobs got to where he was because he had a smart friend You can dislike the man, but saying that is not fair, he was far from a one hit wonder. Apple, NeXT, Pixar? those are the ones I recall. Luck won't get you there.

Luck, skill, hard work, grit, vision.

You still need luck to discover opportunities with the correct growth slope in the market gradient landscape, funding landscape, etc. Some of this is intelligence, but it's also "right place, right time" and "who you know".

But you also need the skill and hard work to execute, grit when facing headwinds, and vision to see the gradient landscape as it ascends and unfolds into the stratosphere. You have to be adaptable. Future thinking, but realistically grounded in implementable plans with a pragmatism for building things the market will want, avoiding the traps your biases may set up for you.

Jobs had all of this.

Re: Steve Wozniak: Steve Jobs wasn’t a natural-born leader

#44
post #6

Wozniak does everything to go down in history as a supposedly unrecognized genius. Every time he makes headlines it is the same story with a slightly different twist.

> a supposedly unrecognized genius I think his floppy disk controller for the Apple II was pretty widely recognized as real stroke of genius. >The Apple II disk controller, designed six months after the Apple II itself was complete, was Steve Wozniak's crowning achievement. His five chip disk controller card out-performed competitive controllers that were four times as expensive by shifting most of the responsibiliti…

And the floppy drives for the C64 were too, a whole computer that could do magic things on it's own. And dozen of other magic things, like Sophie Wilson who I admire most and who did magic things with the Acorns (and of course ARM).

The difference is that those people don't spend decades on bad mouthing others. Also the difference is Sophie Wilson does astonishing things all the way until today.

Everyone says Wozniak is humble, but someone nastily putting others down with "those were skills Jobs had to develop to compensate for not being a particularly skilled computer engineer" is not humble in my book, but passive agressive and toxic. I at least would not like to work with a person that talks bad about others all the time. This is a rule when I hire people, if they talk bad about their current employer, they will talk bad about me in the future.

Re: Steve Wozniak: Steve Jobs wasn’t a natural-born leader

#45

The most impactful class I ever took as a programmer was Theater. Because of theater, I can confidently demonstrate a new feature in front of 150 people, and effectively lead retros and sprint demos. Communication is the most undervalued skill by other engineers, and getting good at it sets you apart far quicker than technical growth alone.

[deleted]

Re: Steve Wozniak: Steve Jobs wasn’t a natural-born leader

#46
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I disagree. I think Jobs personality was such that he would have either ended up founding a company (or perhaps ended up in prison for selling narcotics). I sense his manipulative personality (my words, for other's you can substitute "reality distortion field") was always there. I'm not disputing Wozniak of course, but I think Jobs growth was in learning how to channel that personality toward selling product.…

That's such a disgruntled take. Having a "smart friend" was merely a nice advantage. Jobs' strength was in how he saw the world. His intuition, ability to imagine the future, inspire others and execute on that vision. Marketing and communications skills then almost felt like a by-product of such rare personality traits. I suggest reading "Jony Ive: The Genius Behind Apple's Greatest Products" or any interviews with J…

Oh, I agree. Having a "smart friend" though is why we have Apple and not who-knows-what.

I was actually trying to make the point that he was exactly positioned because of his personality to find some level of greatness. That that greatness would end up being AAPL is, I claim, the "smart friend".

Jobs, for one, knew better to have smart friends, knew also how to push smart friends to do big things.

I am in no way trying to take Jobs down a notch.

Re: Steve Wozniak: Steve Jobs wasn’t a natural-born leader

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I disagree. I think Jobs personality was such that he would have either ended up founding a company (or perhaps ended up in prison for selling narcotics). I sense his manipulative personality (my words, for other's you can substitute "reality distortion field") was always there. I'm not disputing Wozniak of course, but I think Jobs growth was in learning how to channel that personality toward selling product.…

> Jobs got to where he was because he had a smart friend You can dislike the man, but saying that is not fair, he was far from a one hit wonder. Apple, NeXT, Pixar? those are the ones I recall. Luck won't get you there.

[deleted]

Re: Steve Wozniak: Steve Jobs wasn’t a natural-born leader

#48

Some 15 years ago or so? I don't remember. I was working at Apple on the color and graphics team. I don't even to this day remember what the exact circumstance was, but for some reason me and another engineer were urgently called into a conference room just a week or so before some big Apple product reveal. I feel like it was when the "Aqua" UI was to be revealed — I feel like it was something about the seven label c…

I would have loved to have Steve's opinion on presenting things with a video or screenshots slideware. He must have hated that. But this is what we, mere mortals, usually do to present things to other humans.

Re: Steve Wozniak: Steve Jobs wasn’t a natural-born leader

#49
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Jobs got to where he was because he had a smart friend You can dislike the man, but saying that is not fair, he was far from a one hit wonder. Apple, NeXT, Pixar? those are the ones I recall. Luck won't get you there.

Luck, skill, hard work, grit, vision. You still need luck to discover opportunities with the correct growth slope in the market gradient landscape, funding landscape, etc. Some of this is intelligence, but it's also "right place, right time" and "who you know". But you also need the skill and hard work to execute, grit when facing headwinds, and vision to see the gradient landscape as it ascends and unfolds into the…

In short, luck is necessary, but not sufficient.

Re: Steve Wozniak: Steve Jobs wasn’t a natural-born leader

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I disagree. I think Jobs personality was such that he would have either ended up founding a company (or perhaps ended up in prison for selling narcotics). I sense his manipulative personality (my words, for other's you can substitute "reality distortion field") was always there. I'm not disputing Wozniak of course, but I think Jobs growth was in learning how to channel that personality toward selling product.…

> Jobs got to where he was because he had a smart friend You can dislike the man, but saying that is not fair, he was far from a one hit wonder. Apple, NeXT, Pixar? those are the ones I recall. Luck won't get you there.

As I replied in another comment, I didn't mean to come across as dismissive of Jobs — if anything I am trying to make the case that Jobs rose to the occasion when others in the same "lucky seats" did not.

But just to be pedantic with your list, NeXT's success is debatable and not likely to have happened at all if Apple had not happened first. And from what I've read, Pixar did its best when Jobs got out of the way and let them do what they wanted to do: make films, not hardware, not software as Jobs imagined.

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