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Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

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Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#31

Post by gorgoiler »

As a more naive armchair strategist, I used to think wars were about the best weapons and tactics.

The old saying is that real generals think about logistics, not tactics. The implication is that it is logistics for their troops that is the concern.

Now I see that the true strategic advantage for a nation under attack is not only to have a fighting force that is dispersed, strong in numbers and resilient to attribution, but to also have a population that are dispersed, strong in numbers and resilient to attrition.

Every man is given a rifle and a helmet.

Moreover, every citizen is given a water sanitizer, energy dense food, and a shelter.

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#32

Post by alephnan »

rlt wrote: post #24

I don’t understand all the history and nuance of the situation, but I feel incredibly guilty on behalf of the west for courting Ukraine for admission to NATO / EU, but leaving them in a very precarious and vulnerable position in the meantime. It’s just an impossible and sad situation.

NATO and by that we mean the United States has always been in ambiguous and uncommitted relationships with countries.

Their communication is very subtle and succinct.

It’s the same with Taiwan. They do not deny China’s claim to Taiwan, but that is logically not equivalent to saying they accept China’s claim to Taiwan. They use language that is convenient for the politicians of those countries to appease their constituents while maintaining the status quo and pushing the can down the road.

Biden said he agreed in principle to meet if Putin has not already invaded Ukraine. That’s a weirdly structured sentence if you think about it. In plain English, the sentence seem logically equivalent to “only if”, but if we are focused on pure logic, then Biden can still meet Russia despite Russia having invaded.

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#33

Post by curiousgal »

shmageggy wrote: post #5

It's so incredibly sad to see this playing out exactly as many predicted and being unable to stop it (due to the threat of nuclear war). It's like standing on a train track and seeing an oncoming train miles away and yet being unable to move. So many (more) Ukrainians are about to die or suffer horribly, and much of the physical history and cultural artifacts of that city will be destroyed.

This is genuinely not an attempt at flamewar but why can't civilians just leave? Russia is obviously going to win. It's the same with Palestenians, they obviously have not and will not win against Israel. The logical thing to do is to leave, suffer but be sure that your kids will have it better. But I reckon this isn't about logic?

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#34

Post by 14 »

jacquesm wrote: post #2

The number of warcrimes committed by the Russians is astounding. But shooting at fleeing civilians has to earn you a very special place in hell. This is pure blackmail, and it won't stop here.

Is it a war crime to detain prisoners at blacksites and torture them? It seems like war crimes and ignoring the Geneva Convention are pretty common unfortunately and if Western powers can refrain from doing them places like China or Russia will completely disregard them as well. It can't be a do as I say not as I do scenario.

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#35

Post by totesraunch »

jacquesm wrote: post #19
331c8c71 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

Enough to convince Human Rights Watch. " Dat rapporteert mensenrechtenorganisatie Human Rights Watch (HRW) op basis van ooggetuigen en beeldanalyses. " According to a report by humanrights organization Human Rights Watch based on eye witness accounts and image analysis. https://www.nu.nl/spanningen-oekraine/6185514/mensenrechteno...

They don't want actual evidence. There plenty of videos of civilians being murdered, which I'm sure they'll say isn't evidence enough.

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#37

Post by mcintyre1994 »

rado wrote: post #28
mcintyre1994 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Of course we always had the news, but a reporter showing the aftereffects from a safe distance are a bit different from the single soldier streaming the images of the Russian warship before telling them to go fuck themselves. The reporting isn’t like that here either though. Here’s a video of the Sky News UK team getting ambushed: https://news.sky.com/story/amp/sky-news-teams-harrowing-acco...

SkyNews literally just said, "We are used to wars far away, but now the refugees are at our shores." Let that sink in.

I’m not sure why that’s relevant to them getting ambushed but do you have a source for that? The Google results for “We are used to wars far away” are pretty barren, I suspect your comment might be the top search result when they get around to indexing it.

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#38

Post by alephnan »

s5300 wrote: post #23
parineum wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We could have put troops in the country before the invasion.

Trump very specifically pulled us out of this to my knowledge. Biden putting them back would not have been an amazing look, though in the grand scheme likely better than things are going to turn out.

And do democrats support military funding or less ?

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#39

Post by aaronbrethorst »

curiousgal wrote: post #33
shmageggy wrote: post #5

It's so incredibly sad to see this playing out exactly as many predicted and being unable to stop it (due to the threat of nuclear war). It's like standing on a train track and seeing an oncoming train miles away and yet being unable to move. So many (more) Ukrainians are about to die or suffer horribly, and much of the physical history and cultural artifacts of that city will be destroyed.

This is genuinely not an attempt at flamewar but why can't civilians just leave? Russia is obviously going to win. It's the same with Palestenians, they obviously have not and will not win against Israel. The logical thing to do is to leave, suffer but be sure that your kids will have it better. But I reckon this isn't about logic?

Leave where and leave how? In both cases.

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#40

Post by hef19898 »

rado wrote: post #28
mcintyre1994 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Of course we always had the news, but a reporter showing the aftereffects from a safe distance are a bit different from the single soldier streaming the images of the Russian warship before telling them to go fuck themselves. The reporting isn’t like that here either though. Here’s a video of the Sky News UK team getting ambushed: https://news.sky.com/story/amp/sky-news-teams-harrowing-acco...

SkyNews literally just said, "We are used to wars far away, but now the refugees are at our shores." Let that sink in.

Well, more at our land borders. Europe didn't give a rats ass about the refugees at the actual shores before.

Ignoring my inner cynic, it is good that we, the European countries, help Ukraine and the Ukrainian refugees, very good. But yes, I think the West is very much used to start wars in far away countries where we can ignore the consequences in our daily lives. Now someone else started it, close to our homes, and all of a sudden we cannot ignore it anymore. Comes as quite a shock to some, it seems.

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