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So you want to study mathematics

susanrigetti.com

221–230 of 371 posts

Re: So you want to study mathematics

#221
I studied theoretical math.

Step #0: make sure you know what math is

I can't stress it enough. I know this sounds funny, but when I went to study math a lot of people would drop out very quickly because they did not realise that what most people call math and what is taught at high school is completely different from actual theoretical math.

What most people think math is is a collection of formulas that you need to learn to "know math".

Math is actually a dynamic activity and is 100% about solving problems.

Just like programming is not about knowing programming languages. Programming is about solving problems (and knowing programming languages is necessary but not sufficient to be programming).

Re: So you want to study mathematics

#222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My strong opinion as someone who majored in math is that, at least within the US, the standard calculus requirement should be replaced with statistics. So much more useful and so much more important as an adult. The analytical type of thinking that proof-writing is certainly useful, but you can make much the same argument of many other curricula, and besides, it's not like most intro calc courses even do any proofs.…

> My strong opinion as someone who majored in math is that, at least within the US, the standard calculus requirement should be replaced with statistics. So much more useful and so much more important as an adult. Strong agree, but engineers probably need both. I'm currently watching a course on causal inference, and the tools are very much calculating gradients. And even if you just use someone else's MCMC, even in…

Which course, if I might ask? I only recall Brady Neal having his videos online

Re: So you want to study mathematics

#223

I am fairly confident that Susan Rigetti is a future president of the USA. In addition to becoming somewhat well-known as a household name early on in her adult life, she has achieved so many difficult and impressive things (publishing multiple books, studying physics and philosophy at graduate level, working for a top-tier tech company, taking down the CEO of a top-tier tech company and damaging the company's reputa…

I really wonder how some people can be so productive and prolific. In comparison I feel like an uneducated slob.

Re: So you want to study mathematics

#224
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, all tracks of math involve people using math. Proof writing is a part of use for a lot of it. There are also very many tools within the use of proof writing where a lot of education is around learning a bunch of tools so that you can better "recognize which tool to apply, then apply tool", in a future real-world use where you want or need to prove something. I'm a little snarky, but you have a broken idea of wha…

> I'm a little snarky, but you have a broken idea of what math is. I do not, which is why I explicitly acknowledged that what I want is not "real math". I don't care about math for math's sake, even a little. Not my thing, never will be. Basically I want to learn to apply useful results from hundreds-of-years-old "advanced" math the same way I learned math in grade school: memorization, pattern recognition, heuristic…

What you're describing as "real math" is no more "real" than the kind of "math" you do claim to want. They're both math. What you think of as math for math's sake is not necessarily any more for math's sake than for the sake of something else. As other commenters have tried to explain, the two go hand in hand often enough anyway. (And you're right they sometimes don't, go to some random math journal and pick a random paper and it'll probably be something neither you nor I can hope to understand any time soon, with application seemingly nil in any way we could see. A lot of high level math is like that. Maybe some of it is best termed 'exploration'. Nevertheless, it has no claim to "real" math, and I don't think those guys are responsible for US math curriculum.)

Drilling proofs is a valid kind of drilling and can be an effective way to learn something. Not necessarily the only way, sure. But there's nothing fundamentally different or "more real" about drilling proofs vs drilling grade school multiplication problems. You'll memorize things, you'll see patterns, develop heuristics, gain intuition.

Application can sometimes be tricky; did those grade school multiplication drills have application? Are they granted more application by phrasing things in terms of word problems around counting apples or whatever rather than the compressed a times b = blank expression? Well, sometimes the application of proofs will be more direct, sometimes less, and can be phrased better or worse, more realistically (and necessarily more complexly) or less so, like any other exercise, whether it wants a proof or not. CS proofs about big-O complexity are applicable to analysis of algorithms, which is pretty important if that's your focus. Though most problems you could find to drill specifically on big-O (as opposed to other parts of algorithm analysis, like recurrence relations) would likely take the form "find the complexity of this" or "given the complexity is such, estimate..." rather than "prove that...". There are many things no one knows how to prove that are still an area of study, clearly proofs aren't the be-all-end-all. Anyway, the mental processes involved between something like "find x, the hypotenuse of the triangle" and "prove the Pythagorean theorem" often aren't that different. There are multiple ways to prove it, you could drill on them.

And technically, computer programs themselves can be thought of as proofs (Curry-Howard correspondence) so if you've ever written a program that terminates you've written a proof... Proofs don't necessarily have the form or flow "by axiom 1, axiom 2, theorem 34, modus ponens on this, proof by contraposition on that which we'll name lemma 8, and by induction over the integers here, we have proved blah, QED".

And if you grant simple algebraic symbol manipulation as something you would do to solve a word problem, well, that itself is a style of proof. (There's a whole automated proof engine written entirely on the basis of substitution, the same process you use in a simple algebra problem of substituting x + 3 = 10 with x + 3 - 3 = 10 - 3 and reducing to x = 7.)

But fine, no proofs, not even in disguise! What is it that science, engineering, and technology focused subject books that use math only as needed without bothering to prove things when unnecessary (some having exercises and drills of word problems from realistic circumstances) don't do to solve your craving?

Re: So you want to study mathematics

#225
Setting aside the question of motivation, how would a working adult find the time to work through all these books? The author of this clearly leads a busy life outside of reading math textbooks.

Reading a math textbook is time consuming endeavor, regardless of underlying ability. The author herself mentions this in the introduction. I can think of a few factors that might make it possible for a busy person to go through all these books in a few years:

- They include books that were read partially while taking course.

- Consistency: allocating 1 - 2 hours per day for a few years.

- Doing exercises selectively: If you only do a handful of exercises per chapter this would dramatically increase the rate at which you go through a book. This would come at the cost of deeper understanding.

I have a large backlog of math books I'd like to read, but time is a constraining factor. If people have found strategies for reading these types of books, I'd like to hear about them.

Re: So you want to study mathematics

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I looked up the Chartrand Mathematical Proofs book and it's been a while since I had to buy a textbook, but $175 for hardcover and $75 for paperback or ebook? That's nuts. If I were a student today, I'd pirate that and feel absolutely no remorse for doing so.

Thing is that I just can't read PDFs.

Try borrowing a good e-ink reader to see if it helps. If so, get a good one with larger screen if you'll be using more for textbooks.

Re: So you want to study mathematics

#227
post #31

Are there any "math for people who just want to use it" tracks in math pedagogy? I don't care a bit about proving any of it's true, or even reading others proofs of same. "Recognize which tool to apply, then apply tool", all focused on real-world use (so, yes, it wouldn't be "real" mathematics). That's the math education I'd like—try as I might, I just can't make myself care even a little about math for math's sake.…

My strong opinion as someone who majored in math is that, at least within the US, the standard calculus requirement should be replaced with statistics. So much more useful and so much more important as an adult. The analytical type of thinking that proof-writing is certainly useful, but you can make much the same argument of many other curricula, and besides, it's not like most intro calc courses even do any proofs.…

> at least within the US

Because America has straight lines everywhere and no curves, unlike other places.

Calculus is absolutely required for most engineering tasks.

Maybe for CS students there could be more emphasis on statistics as well, without diluting the calculus.

Infact, where I studied, calculus was a prerequisite for certain statistics and probability classes. For good reason.

Re: So you want to study mathematics

#228

I read a Murakami novel in high school, 1Q84. The protagonist is a math teacher who talked about math in a way that I had never seen before. I'd been told I was "good at math" beforehand(for whatever that means, I'm not a fields medalist or anything), but for ~6 months after reading that book, I was _really good_. Like, suddenly I did not have to do any homework in my sr. year calculus class. I loved sitting in class…

C'mon! With a build-up like that and you don't mention the name of the book?! Don't leave us hanging, dude!

its literally called 1Q84

Re: So you want to study mathematics

#229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i second this. there should clear distinction between academic math and "real world usage" math.

Mathematics is a social activity, in the sense that mathematicians create proofs to convince others that their findings are valid. Some proofs are easier to verify than others. Some proofs are "believed to be true" because no one has yet managed to prove them wrong yet. So if you think about "real world usage", you can either use the math results and implicitly trust that they "just work", or you can dive a bit deepe…

> create proofs to convince others

Well, it is not only about people. You would also want to "convince" Nature (so that the aircraft you designed does not crash right after a takeoff), your own or, often, someone else's wallet (so that money is not spent on nothing).

Re: So you want to study mathematics

#230
post #176
post #31

Are there any "math for people who just want to use it" tracks in math pedagogy? I don't care a bit about proving any of it's true, or even reading others proofs of same. "Recognize which tool to apply, then apply tool", all focused on real-world use (so, yes, it wouldn't be "real" mathematics). That's the math education I'd like—try as I might, I just can't make myself care even a little about math for math's sake.…

I have some sympathy for this sentiment, and there is no doubt that the producers of mathematics could and probably should spend more time making life easier for the users and consumers of mathematics. This is true even /within/ the discipline, for very theoretical stuff. In the end this takes vastly more work than people expect. That's not an excuse, but it's true. However, I also have a fundamental objection. I don…

Its like how people use tools, like gears, knowing when to use what type of gears without needing to understand the microscopic material structure that provides its strength, or the mathematical definition of it's kinematics.
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