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Ask HN: What's your view about learning how to program on paper?

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Re: Ask HN: What's your view about learning how to program on paper?

#11

Post by jeira »

sp332 wrote: post #9
jeira wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I should have said something about it, but it is not, at least from what I've been told, about drawing boxes and having a visual representation of your algorithm, but actually writing it on Scheme. On a piece of paper. What if I have a small bug, like a comma, or something small like that, out of place? I'll have to ask the teacher about it. I'm thinking of just skipping this class and learn from OpenCourseware.…

From my experience, teachers are pretty forgiving about "typos" in paper programming. They just want to make sure your thinking is good. Of course I can't vouch for your teacher in particular.

I'll ask him what he thinks about that. Thanks, really appreciated.

Re: Ask HN: What's your view about learning how to program on paper?

#12

Post by jtchang »

I suck at programming on paper or whiteboard. For some reason it feels very unnatural to me. What feels more natural is diagramming and visualization on a whiteboard.

A lot of coding questions can often be sketched out in a few pictures. This is how I like to code. I like to visualize arrays, pointers, and circles/sets. Translating that visual representation of code is much easier for me.

Re: Ask HN: What's your view about learning how to program on paper?

#13

Post by drtse4 »

jeira wrote: post #5
drtse4 wrote: post #3

That's the way i did it fifteen or so years ago and it's the method i'll use if i had to teach an introductory course. Pros: - Using the trial&error approach to solve a problem is not efficient without a compiler, this forces you to think more carefully about the algorithm (and corner cases) instead of just typing out stuff until your algorithm "appears" to work. - You'll learn to debug/test on paper, a skill that ev…

But why only paper? I am not against using paper to do things like doing a diagram so you can understand your algorithm better and its shortcomings, and you're right, knowing how to debug on paper is important, but how do you know you have a bug if you can't test the code in a computer? Our practice classes don't have computers on the classroom. This is not to say you can't do that at home, of course)

I've just read below that it's a scheme course, i did a few lessons on that too and the approach was similar to what you describe. If with "bug" you are referring to syntax errors (being scheme, missing or wrong parenthesis), yeah, without a compiler/syntax checker it will be a bit hard to spot them sometimes. For algorithm testing, it's not different than what you'll do using a compiler, only slower (considering that testing usually involves testing various input combinations). Will, in this case, be a better course with the use of a compiler? Hard to tell, my impression is just that using only paper will make you focus more on the code you are writing, but this could not work for everyone.

Re: Ask HN: What's your view about learning how to program on paper?

#14

Post by parthshah »

As a Programmer I am agree with your teacher. yes it is good if you can write a program on computer. But that's not the case in every scenario. Suppose your are building a complex software at that time you have to foresee the potential breaking points before you start writing your code so you can avoid the bugs at that time code or logic on paper will help you.

Re: Ask HN: What's your view about learning how to program on paper?

#15

Post by sp332 »

jeira wrote: post #10
ericHosick wrote: post #7

I've lectured for a few years. Classes like intro to IT, Software Engineering Fundamentals and a few other similar classes. I think Programming Fundamentals should focus on teaching students how to visual systems (stuff) in the real world and how to make that stuff work in a computer. Basically, the job of a programmer is to take some manual process we do in the real world and automate it in a computer. But the way t…

Thanks Eric, really appreciated for your offer. I don't know how you generally approach this but I've updated my HN account with my email. I will continue attending the class and see if it is indeed more abstract and focused on topics like logic and visual stuff. I'll also ask a friend of mine about her experience with the class and the teacher about how the exams are handled. Once again, thank you for your help. Rea…

Only mods can see what you put in the "email" field. If you want people to see your email address, put it in the "about" box on your profile.

Re: Ask HN: What's your view about learning how to program on paper?

#16

Post by jeira »

sp332 wrote: post #15
jeira wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks Eric, really appreciated for your offer. I don't know how you generally approach this but I've updated my HN account with my email. I will continue attending the class and see if it is indeed more abstract and focused on topics like logic and visual stuff. I'll also ask a friend of mine about her experience with the class and the teacher about how the exams are handled. Once again, thank you for your help. Rea…

Only mods can see what you put in the "email" field. If you want people to see your email address, put it in the "about" box on your profile.

Done. Thanks for the help.

Re: Ask HN: What's your view about learning how to program on paper?

#17

Post by abbasmehdi »

ericHosick wrote: post #7

I've lectured for a few years. Classes like intro to IT, Software Engineering Fundamentals and a few other similar classes. I think Programming Fundamentals should focus on teaching students how to visual systems (stuff) in the real world and how to make that stuff work in a computer. Basically, the job of a programmer is to take some manual process we do in the real world and automate it in a computer. But the way t…

I'd love to check it out too, Eric.

Re: Ask HN: What's your view about learning how to program on paper?

#18

Post by HeyLaughingBoy »

jeira wrote: post #5
drtse4 wrote: post #3

That's the way i did it fifteen or so years ago and it's the method i'll use if i had to teach an introductory course. Pros: - Using the trial&error approach to solve a problem is not efficient without a compiler, this forces you to think more carefully about the algorithm (and corner cases) instead of just typing out stuff until your algorithm "appears" to work. - You'll learn to debug/test on paper, a skill that ev…

But why only paper? I am not against using paper to do things like doing a diagram so you can understand your algorithm better and its shortcomings, and you're right, knowing how to debug on paper is important, but how do you know you have a bug if you can't test the code in a computer? Our practice classes don't have computers on the classroom. This is not to say you can't do that at home, of course)

Because it's not about code really, it's about design of the solution.

PSP (Personal Software Process) encourages the same thing: do your design on paper and debug it, then write the code, do a visual run through of the code, then run it. For short routines, it actually works very well. The problem is that if you've been programming for years, it feels very unnatural and requires a lot of discipline.

Re: Ask HN: What's your view about learning how to program on paper?

#19

Post by pawn »

sp332 wrote: post #9
jeira wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I should have said something about it, but it is not, at least from what I've been told, about drawing boxes and having a visual representation of your algorithm, but actually writing it on Scheme. On a piece of paper. What if I have a small bug, like a comma, or something small like that, out of place? I'll have to ask the teacher about it. I'm thinking of just skipping this class and learn from OpenCourseware.…

From my experience, teachers are pretty forgiving about "typos" in paper programming. They just want to make sure your thinking is good. Of course I can't vouch for your teacher in particular.

Not mine! I've got a story that my college buddies continue to tease me about, almost a decade later.

I was doing a test where we needed to write some computer code on paper. Somewhere in this code was a point that called for multiplication. No big deal. I drew my dot that I'd been taught in all of my math classes and continued on with the test.

When we got the results back, I noticed that he had marked me off for this particular part. Thinking that he had mistaken my dot for a decimal rather than a multiplication sign, I waited until after the class was over and approached him to let him know that I knew the right thing to do and was conveying it with my dot. Apparently he was looking for an asterisk to be drawn. I brought up that it was the same thing, but he would hear none of it. Out of seemingly nowhere he had become infuriated with the fact that I'd questioned him and started repeatedly asking "Will it compile? Will it compile?!" before eventually adding "Minus 10! Thank you Mr. Rose!" A whole letter grade on a test lost because I drew a dot rather than an asterisk. Oh well. At least my friends enjoy laughing it up.

Re: Ask HN: What's your view about learning how to program on paper?

#20

Post by cbs »

jeira wrote: post #5
drtse4 wrote: post #3

That's the way i did it fifteen or so years ago and it's the method i'll use if i had to teach an introductory course. Pros: - Using the trial&error approach to solve a problem is not efficient without a compiler, this forces you to think more carefully about the algorithm (and corner cases) instead of just typing out stuff until your algorithm "appears" to work. - You'll learn to debug/test on paper, a skill that ev…

But why only paper? I am not against using paper to do things like doing a diagram so you can understand your algorithm better and its shortcomings, and you're right, knowing how to debug on paper is important, but how do you know you have a bug if you can't test the code in a computer? Our practice classes don't have computers on the classroom. This is not to say you can't do that at home, of course)

>how do you know you have a bug if you can't test the code in a computer?

Exactly. The idea with paper is that you need to get to the point where you go knowing what you're doing. If, like you said in the OP this is just for quizzes/tests, paper is a good way for a professor to see what you know when you sat down for a test, not what you were able to massage into compiling during the exam period. In 4 years of college, I the vast majority (all?) of my tests, exams, quizzes were on paper unless it was a project to do at home. For the most part, on-paper tests are about showing you understand the concept at hand, not that you dot every I and cross every T. If one of the concepts a test is going to test you on is that you have semicolons at the end of lines, you're going to get docked for it on that one, but every test after that it will be at worst a tiny deduction. They know what writing code on paper is like, just show them what they're looking for, and you'll be good.

>Our practice classes don't have computers on the classroom

This is what concerns me. Are you saying you don't have computers during you lecture, or is this a lab-type period where you're still working on paper?

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