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Notes on Nationalism (1945)

orwellfoundation.com

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Re: Notes on Nationalism (1945)

#151

Post by bandushrew »

InvaderFizz wrote: post #122
prox wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain further? What are these rules and what is “The Game”? You mean the sanctions? Those aren’t anything new afaik, and I don’t understand the connection to how the West will become more authoritarian because of that.

Not OP, but I wonder is he is having the same feeling I am on this whole Ukraine situation. Below is a paste from a conversation I had with a close group of friends: I feel sorry for Ukrainians. I can't help but shake the feeling that they are being used as a pawn for the US to drain the military resources of Russia. I would guess that, the optimal outcome from the neocon/neolib perspective is for Russia to rubblize…

I find it interesting that your language implies it is the responsibility of the west to persuade Russia to back off?

Surely the responsibility for the actions of Russia rest on the Russian leadership?

Russia has decided to invade Ukraine. Russia needs to decide to stop doing that.

Where does it become the responsibility of the west?

Re: Notes on Nationalism (1945)

#152

Post by bilbo0s »

saila wrote: post #115
CodeGlitch wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately in the West I think this might be identity politics. There is very much a "us Vs them" attitude with the whole thing. To give an example I see a lot of LGBT "allies" with pin badges, flags, etc. To label oneself as being part of that group. Without flying the flags you are seen as an outsider.

Modern identity politics in the U.S. seems like the inevitable result of telling people they are "free" but then excluding certain identified groups from social life, jobs, etc. Over time, people will bond around their exclusion to create a more powerful bloc to assert their rights. It seems to me that the dominant identitarians of the past have largely created the current situation by not following the creed of "liv…

Identity politics would always exist.

We just called it "tribalism" in our distant past.

It can never go away. It isn't specific to the US either, it's a part of us as humans. That's the real reason there are no "free" countries. I guarantee, you look closely enough, you'll find the group in that country that is not "free". People just knock the US all the time because the group in our nation that is not "free" is pretty obvious to everyone in the world. But all the other nations are just as bad. I've been to a lot of them, so I can promise you that.

There is not shining example of non-tribalist freedom out there, and only the ready and frequent application of force would ever create such a nation. Even then, it would be against the will of many of that nation's citizens.

Re: Notes on Nationalism (1945)

#153

Post by InvaderFizz »

swagasaurus-rex wrote: post #142
InvaderFizz wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not OP, but I wonder is he is having the same feeling I am on this whole Ukraine situation. Below is a paste from a conversation I had with a close group of friends: I feel sorry for Ukrainians. I can't help but shake the feeling that they are being used as a pawn for the US to drain the military resources of Russia. I would guess that, the optimal outcome from the neocon/neolib perspective is for Russia to rubblize…

It’s true the west does not want to get their hands dirty, and the people of Ukraine suffer all the more because of it. The reason is Nuclear Weapons. Putin is holding the world hostage and saying “don’t get involved or I blow us all to hell.” The blame is on Putin. He invaded. He cried the crocodile tears about NATO while approving unjustified war on the people of Ukraine.

> The blame is on Putin.

Not arguing that point. He made the decision to invade, he has agency of his own and is responsible for his actions.

My point is that if people think his Nazi and NATO talk is bullshit, call it by offering terms that completely neutralize those points.

It's one thing to say, "Ukraine was never going to be in NATO, trust us." It's a completely different thing to say, "Ukraine will never be in NATO, here is a legally binding treaty stating so, contingent on X actions by Russia."

Re: Notes on Nationalism (1945)

#154

Post by dragonwriter »

InvaderFizz wrote: post #153
swagasaurus-rex wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s true the west does not want to get their hands dirty, and the people of Ukraine suffer all the more because of it. The reason is Nuclear Weapons. Putin is holding the world hostage and saying “don’t get involved or I blow us all to hell.” The blame is on Putin. He invaded. He cried the crocodile tears about NATO while approving unjustified war on the people of Ukraine.

> The blame is on Putin. Not arguing that point. He made the decision to invade, he has agency of his own and is responsible for his actions. My point is that if people think his Nazi and NATO talk is bullshit, call it by offering terms that completely neutralize those points. It's one thing to say, "Ukraine was never going to be in NATO, trust us." It's a completely different thing to say, "Ukraine will never be in…

> It's one thing to say, "Ukraine was never going to be in NATO, trust us."

No one ever said that. Ukraine is going to be in NATO if they want to be in NATO. The claim that Ukraine would eventually be admitted to NATO is not the bullshit.

The bullshit is that NATO is offensively directed at Russia; the only reason Russia isn't in NATO and covered by its defensive shield (Russia joined the onramp Partnership for Peace program in 1994) is that Putin decided he didn't want it to be, made known-unacceptable demands to bypass the accession process, was rebuffed as he knew he would be, and used that as a reason to stop any work toward joining.

Re: Notes on Nationalism (1945)

#155

Post by bilbo0s »

systemvoltage wrote: post #93
hereforphone wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no narrative. Humans prefer to function alongside those who hold similar values to their own. This increases efficiency (when the values are productive) and naturally results in a feedback loop that ideally will improve that value set. I know many of us have to go to HR training now and learn about the wonders of diversity, but there's a lot to be said (in nature and history) from shared values and culture.

> HR training now and learn about the wonders of diversity That's kind of ironic because true diversity of thought is not tolerated.

Shared values and culture necessitate limited tolerance for diversity of thought.

That's just reality. You can't share values if you tolerate people thinking other values are better.

Culturally also. In the US, back when everyone ate chicken, spoke English, and went to some form of Christian church on Sundays, there was very little cultural diversity tolerated.

Chicken, English, and Church was the culture.

Re: Notes on Nationalism (1945)

#156

Post by joseph8th »

jdrc wrote: post #60
supercucklchaim wrote: post #19

The world needs to be rid of Nationalism sooner rather than later. The narrative is changing slowly but surely. Our ability to use the internet, aside from obvious propaganda, has made the world smaller yet more interconnected than ever.

nationalism is surely on the decline, but we can't replace it with nothing.

Clearly you should have read Orwell's essay. He makes clear the distinction between patriotism and nationalism in the first couple paragraphs.

Re: Notes on Nationalism (1945)

#157

Post by enkid »

car_analogy wrote: post #143
enkid wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia saying Ukrainian culture is the same as Russian culture could be considered racist. It's similar to claims that African Americans don't have a unique culture. The result is people justifying suppression of that culture because it "doesn't exist" independently.

Are there really semi-common claims that African Americans don't have a unique culture? Opinion: There is no 'White culture' - https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/18/opinions/american-culture-and... White culture steals because it has no soul of its own. White people are fleeing Whiteness because they do not have a way to exist apart from their history of oppression. - https://www.salon.com/2013/04/25/how_can_white_americans…

I don't know about modern claims, I was more talking about historical claims, where "culture" was associated with whiteness and things that were considered black were lesser and therefore not worth preserving. Black culture wasn't "American" even thought it was in America. If you claim Ukrainian culture is Russian culture even thought Ukrainians don't agree, and then use that to justify an invasion, it sure seems racist to me.

Re: Notes on Nationalism (1945)

#158

Post by joseph8th »

eklavya wrote: post #16

It frustrates me to no end when people confuse patriotism with nationalism, some even cite this essay! They say despicable things (in my view) like "patriotism is the root of all evil" while enjoying the lifestyle/security provided by the altruistic patriotism of many others.

I have always considered myself a patriot, even in my commie youth. The idea of America to me was revitalized and given honor and dignity in the Civil Rights era. Real sacrifice. Self sacrifice that leads to progress, not sacrificing others for personal profit. Something indefinite, yet you know it when you see it, like porn.

A coworker originally from Russia the other day expressed dismay about Ukraine and worry for the democracy there. Her family back home doesn't know much about the war, but she does. She became a citizen last year, and but she seemed like George fucking Washington in that moment

Re: Notes on Nationalism (1945)

#159

Post by piscesmustard »

mantas wrote: post #21
supercucklchaim wrote: post #19

The world needs to be rid of Nationalism sooner rather than later. The narrative is changing slowly but surely. Our ability to use the internet, aside from obvious propaganda, has made the world smaller yet more interconnected than ever.

We need more Ukrainian style nationalism and less Russian style chauvinism.

It is quite sad the propaganda machine has convinced many that Ukraine hasn't done anything wrong at all. I am still catching up with a lot of the recent history in the region.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbas

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk_agreements

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion

I am certainly not saying that Russia didn't take advantage of the situation here. But as always the situation is much more complicated than what is typically presented.

Re: Notes on Nationalism (1945)

#160

Post by joseph8th »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #46
eklavya wrote: post #16

It frustrates me to no end when people confuse patriotism with nationalism, some even cite this essay! They say despicable things (in my view) like "patriotism is the root of all evil" while enjoying the lifestyle/security provided by the altruistic patriotism of many others.

Using the article's definitions of patriotism and nationalism, I struggle to see who these supposed altruistic patriots are. Certainly not in the military, which is almost solely focused on obtaining more power and prestige for itself and the nation. While there may be some "patriots" in government or policing, it's hard to say that's the dominant ideology. And businesses obsession with money far outweighs any patrio…

I'm one. Just a schmuck, but I haven't given up on the idea of America. Not like George Washington, or Abraham Lincoln, or JFK, but like George Washington Carver, or MLK Jr. The idea that the American Revolution never ended. That the Civil Rights era was just another phase in our centuries long progressively more democratic experiment in self-government
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