Notes on Nationalism (1945) • Hacker News Board

Re: Notes on Nationalism (1945)

#121

Post by samatman » Sun, Mar 06, 2022, 6:17 PM UTC

eklavya wrote: post #16

It frustrates me to no end when people confuse patriotism with nationalism, some even cite this essay! They say despicable things (in my view) like "patriotism is the root of all evil" while enjoying the lifestyle/security provided by the altruistic patriotism of many others.

Patriotism is an irregular adjective in English, which takes the conjugation of the pronoun.

For example, I am patriotic, while you are nationalistic, but they are jingoistic and probably fascist to boot.

I hope this helps.

Re: Notes on Nationalism (1945)

#122

Post by InvaderFizz » Sun, Mar 06, 2022, 6:29 PM UTC

prox wrote: post #111

tenpies wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Man in the High Castle adaption by Amazon was fantastic in this. The Nazi cities were beautiful . They were orderly, clean, everyone was well dressed and nice. Infrastructure was top notch and there were only very small hints that something was off. It was the type of NIMBY paradise that the rich Californians would kill for. What I have found to be a fantastic guiding principle for fascism in the West is the sayi…

Can you explain further? What are these rules and what is “The Game”? You mean the sanctions? Those aren’t anything new afaik, and I don’t understand the connection to how the West will become more authoritarian because of that.

Not OP, but I wonder is he is having the same feeling I am on this whole Ukraine situation.

Below is a paste from a conversation I had with a close group of friends:

I feel sorry for Ukrainians. I can't help but shake the feeling that they are being used as a pawn for the US to drain the military resources of Russia.

I would guess that, the optimal outcome from the neocon/neolib perspective is for Russia to rubblize Ukraine over a period of months to a year, all they while the west says "woe is me", and supplies equipment to decimate Russian armor and aircraft.

This makes Russia the indisputable bad guy for the atrocities committed against Ukraine, all the while the west has clean hands in decimating Russia's military power.

The end result is hundreds of thousands to millions of dead Ukrainians that the neocons will shed crocodile tears over.

Only cost them a few hundred million dollars to do hundreds of billions of dollars in damage to Russia.

If there was any legitimate desire to have Russia back off, they would be offering terms such as guaranteeing that Ukraine would never enter NATO as part of a treaty, lifting of sanctions, etc, contingent on a full withdrawal.

Re: Notes on Nationalism (1945)

#123

Post by beebmam » Sun, Mar 06, 2022, 6:31 PM UTC

quantumwannabe wrote: post #105

einpoklum wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The book is brilliant, I would say, for being readable at the same time as an ode of support and admiration for the social order, and as a scathing critique of that order. IIANM Heinlein himself was more on the side of the first interpretation (correct me if I'm wrong) but was fair enough to offer solid footing for the opposite view; although one wonders how much of it was conscious and how much of it was his capabil…

The book is a vehicle for Heinlein's political views and he is 100% in support of the ideology described. The political system described in the book isn't fascism, rather it is democracy with the franchise limited to people who have served their country. Heinlein believes people who have never made personal sacrifices make poor decisions and therefore political power should be limited to people who have made such sac…

Yes, exactly. Whether one agrees with Heinlein's views or not, his work should likely be put in context. Heinlein's interviews are a good place for that context.

Re: Notes on Nationalism (1945)

#124

Post by donatj » Sun, Mar 06, 2022, 6:51 PM UTC

How Orwell defines Nationalism is in my experience what you hear getting called "statism" in libertarian circles.

Re: Notes on Nationalism (1945)

#125

Post by Synaesthesia » Sun, Mar 06, 2022, 6:56 PM UTC

donatj wrote: post #124

How Orwell defines Nationalism is in my experience what you hear getting called "statism" in libertarian circles.

Sure, it's worship of the state in the final analysis.

Re: Notes on Nationalism (1945)

#126

Post by dsclough » Sun, Mar 06, 2022, 7:15 PM UTC

mananaysiempre wrote: post #102

BuyMyBitcoins wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ” The original Lego Movie (2014) has a wonderful, cheerful, catchy, and quite literally and deliberately fascist theme song (Everything is Awesome)” I’m sorry, what? I know the label “fascist” gets thrown around with reckless abandon these days, but in what way is the everting is awesome song fascistic? To me it’s just a catchy children's song.

I mean, I might be wrong, but—in the literal one? As in it preaches conformity and finding your purpose in following the group whatever the group is doing? A glance at the lyrics makes me think my memory might have made this stronger than it actually is, but when I watched the movie about five years ago I remember thinking those lyrics were the first sign something was supposed to be off, and indeed I seem to remembe…

I had the same takeaway from this movie as you did, thought indeed it has been a while since I've seen it as well. Seems quite unlikely that Everything is Awesome was simply meant as a catchy children's song.

Re: Notes on Nationalism (1945)

#127

Post by quacked » Sun, Mar 06, 2022, 7:25 PM UTC

cmurf wrote: post #88

goodpoint wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many people are so used to nationalist propaganda that they don't see it's a parody. Pretty scary.

When I was a teen in midwest USA I took a German foreign exchange student to an NFL game. They were mortified at the whole stadium standing to sing the national anthem, thought it was bizarre and scary.

When I was a teen in I thought it was bizarre and scary that anyone would feel enough patriotism to sing the national anthem. Now I think it's bizarre and scary for anyone to feel such a lack of patriotism that they would think it's bizarre and scary to want to sing the national anthem.

Re: Notes on Nationalism (1945)

#128

Post by mantas » Sun, Mar 06, 2022, 7:29 PM UTC

CodeGlitch wrote: post #39

mantas wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need more Ukrainian style nationalism and less Russian style chauvinism.

You raise a good point. In times of emergency, desperation: nationalism can be beneficial. For the most part however it seems to be destructive.

Societies shall be designed to withstand the worst. Not just naively hoping for the best.

It's not destructive. At worst, it's less fun for hyper individualistic type of people.

Re: Notes on Nationalism (1945)

#129

Post by nojonestownpls » Sun, Mar 06, 2022, 7:38 PM UTC

mananaysiempre wrote: post #67

The original Lego Movie (2014) has a wonderful, cheerful, catchy, and quite literally and deliberately fascist theme song ( Everything is Awesome ). You could say the entire (surprisingly good) film is an explanation of why it’s not as good a thing as it seems to be. (Yes, that’s all kinds of ironic for what is at the same time essentially a feature-length commercial.)

No post body was provided.

Re: Notes on Nationalism (1945)

#130

Post by darkwater » Sun, Mar 06, 2022, 7:45 PM UTC

quacked wrote: post #127

cmurf wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was a teen in midwest USA I took a German foreign exchange student to an NFL game. They were mortified at the whole stadium standing to sing the national anthem, thought it was bizarre and scary.

When I was a teen in I thought it was bizarre and scary that anyone would feel enough patriotism to sing the national anthem. Now I think it's bizarre and scary for anyone to feel such a lack of patriotism that they would think it's bizarre and scary to want to sing the national anthem.

You have been successfully assimilated /s