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Notes on Nationalism (1945)

orwellfoundation.com

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Re: Notes on Nationalism (1945)

#101

Post by watwut »

quacked wrote: post #79
progre wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The book (one of my favourites) is a little diffrent. There the perspective is that of the mobile infantist. The classic hero arc but in a fashist world. Like in the movie, there is no enlightenment or revolution though, just the story of a regular directionless Joe who finds his true self and a purpose in life in the Mobile Infantry. The movie is brilliant in a diffrent way. It's basically satire on all levels. Paul…

> Like in the movie, there is no enlightenment or revolution though, just the story of a regular directionless Joe who finds his true self and a purpose in life in the Mobile Infantry This is a very shallow interpretation of the book. When did you read it?

I have seen the book quoted in defense of near fascists ideas (like that soldiers should have more say in politics and more voting rights then civilians). In full seriousness.

I have never seen it quoted to support anything else.

Re: Notes on Nationalism (1945)

#102

Post by mananaysiempre »

BuyMyBitcoins wrote: post #98
mananaysiempre wrote: post #67

The original Lego Movie (2014) has a wonderful, cheerful, catchy, and quite literally and deliberately fascist theme song ( Everything is Awesome ). You could say the entire (surprisingly good) film is an explanation of why it’s not as good a thing as it seems to be. (Yes, that’s all kinds of ironic for what is at the same time essentially a feature-length commercial.)

> ” The original Lego Movie (2014) has a wonderful, cheerful, catchy, and quite literally and deliberately fascist theme song (Everything is Awesome)” I’m sorry, what? I know the label “fascist” gets thrown around with reckless abandon these days, but in what way is the everting is awesome song fascistic? To me it’s just a catchy children's song.

I mean, I might be wrong, but—in the literal one? As in it preaches conformity and finding your purpose in following the group whatever the group is doing?

A glance at the lyrics makes me think my memory might have made this stronger than it actually is, but when I watched the movie about five years ago I remember thinking those lyrics were the first sign something was supposed to be off, and indeed I seem to remember that when the protagonist broke away from the prescribed routine he looked on with longing at the others “working in harmony” while the song is playing in the background.

It might have been cheery Soviet plays from the 1930s making me paranoid, but that song was the strongest impression the film left on me.

Re: Notes on Nationalism (1945)

#103

Post by watwut »

musha68k wrote: post #40
bigDinosaur wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people I've talked to who watched Starship Troopers didn't think it was satire. To be fair, the enemy is literally not human which does make it harder to pick up on.

I remember watching it as a teenager back in 1997. I was the only one laughing in the cinema, it was just hilarious. It immediately dawned on me after though: why was no one else laughing, really? In Austria of all places. Hadn’t anyone else paid attention during history classes - at all? Continuously chilling yet I’ve never been really surprised by the creeping normalcy of fascist thought since the 90s - in part bec…

To me, it came across as badly done movie. Cringy, but not funny.

Re: Notes on Nationalism (1945)

#104

Post by goodpoint »

nirui wrote: post #68
goodpoint wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People in a fascist society may work a well-paid job in a clean glassy high-rise Just like under fascism in Italy and Germany. Most people would spend their attention on work and entertainment, often avoiding discussing politics and ignore dissenting voices outside of the overton window. Sounds familiar?

> Most people would spend their attention on work and entertainment And most of their life would be normal, happy, even fulfilling until the very moment they "stepped over the red line". I've observed many instances in the past, so yes, I'm very familiar of it. In fact, people has invented a term for it already, it's called *** ****.

> it's called ** **.

huh?

Re: Notes on Nationalism (1945)

#105

Post by quantumwannabe »

einpoklum wrote: post #27
progre wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The book (one of my favourites) is a little diffrent. There the perspective is that of the mobile infantist. The classic hero arc but in a fashist world. Like in the movie, there is no enlightenment or revolution though, just the story of a regular directionless Joe who finds his true self and a purpose in life in the Mobile Infantry. The movie is brilliant in a diffrent way. It's basically satire on all levels. Paul…

The book is brilliant, I would say, for being readable at the same time as an ode of support and admiration for the social order, and as a scathing critique of that order. IIANM Heinlein himself was more on the side of the first interpretation (correct me if I'm wrong) but was fair enough to offer solid footing for the opposite view; although one wonders how much of it was conscious and how much of it was his capabil…

The book is a vehicle for Heinlein's political views and he is 100% in support of the ideology described. The political system described in the book isn't fascism, rather it is democracy with the franchise limited to people who have served their country. Heinlein believes people who have never made personal sacrifices make poor decisions and therefore political power should be limited to people who have made such sacrifices. It's the same reason why children lack the right to vote in real-world democracies: a lack of experience to base decisions on. Heinlein also believes that democracy and human rights are fragile and need to be actively defended, not taken for granted.

Verhoeven's movie is just a campy film; the man admitted that he stopped reading the book as soon as he saw the first "fascist" element, because he thinks that "military" equals "fascism". The movie is a strawman that does not represent Heinlein's views and is best thought of as a mindless action movie with a simple message of "war bad" instead of biting political satire.

Re: Notes on Nationalism (1945)

#106

Post by foobarian »

mananaysiempre wrote: post #102
BuyMyBitcoins wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ” The original Lego Movie (2014) has a wonderful, cheerful, catchy, and quite literally and deliberately fascist theme song (Everything is Awesome)” I’m sorry, what? I know the label “fascist” gets thrown around with reckless abandon these days, but in what way is the everting is awesome song fascistic? To me it’s just a catchy children's song.

I mean, I might be wrong, but—in the literal one? As in it preaches conformity and finding your purpose in following the group whatever the group is doing? A glance at the lyrics makes me think my memory might have made this stronger than it actually is, but when I watched the movie about five years ago I remember thinking those lyrics were the first sign something was supposed to be off, and indeed I seem to remembe…

I don't find the literal interpretation helpful. That pretty much describes any group activity anywhere in the world. Find me one major Western company that does not preach "better together" or "teamwork" or whatever. Then you have the Eastern ideas of "all under Heaven." The Communist "brotherhood and unity." Etc.

Not that I have an answer. It's complicated but interesting. :-) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_fascism

Re: Notes on Nationalism (1945)

#107

Post by throwawayboise »

mananaysiempre wrote: post #102
BuyMyBitcoins wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ” The original Lego Movie (2014) has a wonderful, cheerful, catchy, and quite literally and deliberately fascist theme song (Everything is Awesome)” I’m sorry, what? I know the label “fascist” gets thrown around with reckless abandon these days, but in what way is the everting is awesome song fascistic? To me it’s just a catchy children's song.

I mean, I might be wrong, but—in the literal one? As in it preaches conformity and finding your purpose in following the group whatever the group is doing? A glance at the lyrics makes me think my memory might have made this stronger than it actually is, but when I watched the movie about five years ago I remember thinking those lyrics were the first sign something was supposed to be off, and indeed I seem to remembe…

> conformity and finding your purpose in following the group

That's good advice for a happy life for a lot of people, of course assuming that "the group" is not actively hostile to nonconformists. But nothing wrong with chosing to get a job, work hard and take care of your family, and live according to your cultural and/or religious customs.

Re: Notes on Nationalism (1945)

#108

Post by donatj »

einpoklum wrote: post #27
progre wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The book (one of my favourites) is a little diffrent. There the perspective is that of the mobile infantist. The classic hero arc but in a fashist world. Like in the movie, there is no enlightenment or revolution though, just the story of a regular directionless Joe who finds his true self and a purpose in life in the Mobile Infantry. The movie is brilliant in a diffrent way. It's basically satire on all levels. Paul…

The book is brilliant, I would say, for being readable at the same time as an ode of support and admiration for the social order, and as a scathing critique of that order. IIANM Heinlein himself was more on the side of the first interpretation (correct me if I'm wrong) but was fair enough to offer solid footing for the opposite view; although one wonders how much of it was conscious and how much of it was his capabil…

My personal understanding of Heinlein is that he shifted from a very pro-government conservative to a far more laissez faire libertarian as he aged and as you follow his works throughout his life. Starship Troopers came far earlier in this progression.

Re: Notes on Nationalism (1945)

#109

Post by donatj »

gexla wrote: post #15
rramadass wrote: post #2

Given whats going on in the World now, Orwell's "Notes on Nationalism" is a pertinent read. We must be careful that we don't get carried away by Propaganda and start demonizing "the other side" reflexively. Summary on Wikipedia : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notes_on_Nationalism

I feel the deeper thing that's going on is that you're objectifying the other side. By turning them into an object, you strip others of their humanity. You then setup a relationship in which you can rationalize doing all sorts of bad things. Not sure that "objectifying" is the right word here though.

I think dehumanizing is the more common word for what you’re expressing, but objectifying works here too.

Re: Notes on Nationalism (1945)

#110

Post by prox »

throwawayboise wrote: post #107
mananaysiempre wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, I might be wrong, but—in the literal one? As in it preaches conformity and finding your purpose in following the group whatever the group is doing? A glance at the lyrics makes me think my memory might have made this stronger than it actually is, but when I watched the movie about five years ago I remember thinking those lyrics were the first sign something was supposed to be off, and indeed I seem to remembe…

> conformity and finding your purpose in following the group That's good advice for a happy life for a lot of people, of course assuming that "the group" is not actively hostile to nonconformists. But nothing wrong with chosing to get a job, work hard and take care of your family, and live according to your cultural and/or religious customs.

Yeah, the lego people where just building and destroying and weren’t allowed to think outside that norm. Master builders were outlawed and creativity was frowned upon.

Lego movie is a movie from the perspective of the kid who wants to play but his father who is also represented as the CEO / absolute ruler wants to keep his lego world as he once made it (the kragl glue superweapon)

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