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Notes on Nationalism (1945)

orwellfoundation.com

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Re: Notes on Nationalism (1945)

#31

Post by sdb0 »

prox wrote: post #8

Starship Troopers (1997) is an interesting movie that is basically a “war propaganda” movie seen from the viewpoint of a fascistic government. The whole point of the movie is to make the enemy seem like “the other” , and in this case these are actual alien bugs in the movie. All of the human characters in the movie are beautiful and everything on “our” side as we view it is shiny and “the good side” Paul Verhoeven al…

>All of the human characters in the movie are beautiful and everything on “our” side as we view it is shiny and “the good side”

must have been shocking to see that in a film

Re: Notes on Nationalism (1945)

#32

Post by int_19h »

mantas wrote: post #29
eklavya wrote: post #16

It frustrates me to no end when people confuse patriotism with nationalism, some even cite this essay! They say despicable things (in my view) like "patriotism is the root of all evil" while enjoying the lifestyle/security provided by the altruistic patriotism of many others.

Even more frustrating is confusing nationalism with chauvinism, nacism and fascism. Nationalism as nations’ right to self determination and self rule is great. And that’s what brought down the old empires. While now empires are rebuilt under anti-nationalist slogans and we are sliding back to multinational behemoths. Good case why healthy dose of patriotism-nationalism is necessary is Ukraine war.

There's nothing particularly great about nationalism, because "nation" itself is an abstract concept that's inherently malleable. And thus we get those nebulous "national interests" or "national security", which seemingly justifies everything if you can get people hysterical enough about it.

Re: Notes on Nationalism (1945)

#33

Post by artem247 »

pastacacioepepe wrote: post #17
rramadass wrote: post #2

Given whats going on in the World now, Orwell's "Notes on Nationalism" is a pertinent read. We must be careful that we don't get carried away by Propaganda and start demonizing "the other side" reflexively. Summary on Wikipedia : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notes_on_Nationalism

Totally agree but it's too late, it already happened. It took only about 4 days of intense propaganda, for people to start asking for racial sanctions. People started demonizing Dostoevsky. Russians have lost their jobs all over the world for not publicly taking a stance against their own people. Next step is going to be the burning of russian books. Trust me, at this rate, it will come soon.

No post body was provided.

Re: Notes on Nationalism (1945)

#34

Post by phatfish »

pastacacioepepe wrote: post #17
rramadass wrote: post #2

Given whats going on in the World now, Orwell's "Notes on Nationalism" is a pertinent read. We must be careful that we don't get carried away by Propaganda and start demonizing "the other side" reflexively. Summary on Wikipedia : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notes_on_Nationalism

Totally agree but it's too late, it already happened. It took only about 4 days of intense propaganda, for people to start asking for racial sanctions. People started demonizing Dostoevsky. Russians have lost their jobs all over the world for not publicly taking a stance against their own people. Next step is going to be the burning of russian books. Trust me, at this rate, it will come soon.

I've not seen any of this. But then I avoid Twitter and other social media. In a conflict with global attention like this one there will always be a minority of extreme views (propaganda and genuine). Western leaders are not blaming the Russian people, although obviously there is an affect on them. Same with the mainstream media.

The hatred of a very small minority amplified by social media is the source of opinion like this.

Re: Notes on Nationalism (1945)

#35

Post by pastacacioepepe »

phatfish wrote: post #34
pastacacioepepe wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally agree but it's too late, it already happened. It took only about 4 days of intense propaganda, for people to start asking for racial sanctions. People started demonizing Dostoevsky. Russians have lost their jobs all over the world for not publicly taking a stance against their own people. Next step is going to be the burning of russian books. Trust me, at this rate, it will come soon.

I've not seen any of this. But then I avoid Twitter and other social media. In a conflict with global attention like this one there will always be a minority of extreme views (propaganda and genuine). Western leaders are not blaming the Russian people, although obviously there is an affect on them. Same with the mainstream media. The hatred of a very small minority amplified by social media is the source of opinion l…

It's not the majority of the people luckily, although most have been in a state of propaganda shock for a few days and are recovering now. The ones proposing the worst things are politicians and the state affiliated media in concertation, which when is war time we just found out is 100% of the "independent" western media.

Re: Notes on Nationalism (1945)

#37

Post by CodeGlitch »

sjaak wrote: post #20
supercucklchaim wrote: post #19

The world needs to be rid of Nationalism sooner rather than later. The narrative is changing slowly but surely. Our ability to use the internet, aside from obvious propaganda, has made the world smaller yet more interconnected than ever.

Something else will replace it. Tribalism is built in to our ‘firmware’.

Unfortunately in the West I think this might be identity politics. There is very much a "us Vs them" attitude with the whole thing. To give an example I see a lot of LGBT "allies" with pin badges, flags, etc. To label oneself as being part of that group.

Without flying the flags you are seen as an outsider.

Re: Notes on Nationalism (1945)

#38

Post by ZeroGravitas »

janmarsal wrote: post #18

Very Orwellian definition of nationalism, I must say. I always considered nationalism as the antithesis of imperialism. A nation should be ruled from their own land and by their own people. Not by foreigners from a far far away land. Almost makes you think Orwell was some kind of an imperialist (a reformist, but still) who tried to vilify nationalism in order to keep the British empire together. Good think that faile…

One definition of Fascism is "imperialism coming home" and for whatever weird reason, Fascists generally portray themselves as being patriotic/nationalist often in the sense of not treating other countries and their citizens as equals, so basically imperialism.

Re: Notes on Nationalism (1945)

#39

Post by CodeGlitch »

mantas wrote: post #21
supercucklchaim wrote: post #19

The world needs to be rid of Nationalism sooner rather than later. The narrative is changing slowly but surely. Our ability to use the internet, aside from obvious propaganda, has made the world smaller yet more interconnected than ever.

We need more Ukrainian style nationalism and less Russian style chauvinism.

You raise a good point. In times of emergency, desperation: nationalism can be beneficial.

For the most part however it seems to be destructive.

Re: Notes on Nationalism (1945)

#40

Post by musha68k »

bigDinosaur wrote: post #10
prox wrote: post #8

Starship Troopers (1997) is an interesting movie that is basically a “war propaganda” movie seen from the viewpoint of a fascistic government. The whole point of the movie is to make the enemy seem like “the other” , and in this case these are actual alien bugs in the movie. All of the human characters in the movie are beautiful and everything on “our” side as we view it is shiny and “the good side” Paul Verhoeven al…

Most people I've talked to who watched Starship Troopers didn't think it was satire. To be fair, the enemy is literally not human which does make it harder to pick up on.

I remember watching it as a teenager back in 1997. I was the only one laughing in the cinema, it was just hilarious.

It immediately dawned on me after though: why was no one else laughing, really? In Austria of all places.

Hadn’t anyone else paid attention during history classes - at all?

Continuously chilling yet I’ve never been really surprised by the creeping normalcy of fascist thought since the 90s - in part because of Verhoeven’s Starship Troopers.

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