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Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

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Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#651

Post by snek_case »

enaaem wrote: post #532
andrey123 wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[Disclaimer: Russian] According to my estimations, probably at least 95% of people who are "against the war" do not go out to participate in protests. My estimations are based on talking to my colleagues (large IT company). Yes, starting from now, protesting becomes more risky (you may go to jail for years if you get caught second time). But just a week ago, it was mostly harmless (yes, some people get arrested for f…

You can read the book: Blueprint for Revolution: How to Use Rice Pudding, Lego Men, and Other Nonviolent Techniques to Galvanize Communities, Overthrow Dictators, or Simply Change the World It proposes many interesting strategies and ideas on how to protest in dictatorships. Be subtle, use humor and focus your message on the most common people. Don't call for democracy, free speech or anything like that. You will be…

I like the peaceful approach, but the scary thing here is that the dictator in power can be a straight up psychopath with no empathy. Putin doesn't seem to have any qualms with getting his perceived enemies murdered... So even to lead a peaceful movement like that, the identity of the leaders has to somehow remain a secret?

Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#652

Post by BbzzbB »

diordiderot wrote: post #635
BbzzbB wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Easy for us in the West to show responsibility when it's not our and our families' lives that are on the line. Our non-willingness (if political decisions can be considered collective, as so many here imply for Russia) to die is made obvious by the fact no one nation dares put a boot on the ground while Ukraine gets leveled.

Or maybe it's the certainty of global nuclear annihilation and the end of humanity as we know it But you're probably right, the selfish cowards things makes sense. I guess that's why we haven't gone to war since 1945... Oh wait

FWIW I'm not arguing we should, I just find it hypocritical to say Europeans (which I'll extrapolate to the rest of us in the West) are taking responsibility as opposed to Russians when we are doing so from the comfort of our intact living rooms.

Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#653

Post by lowkey »

hagy wrote: post #618
lowkey wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like you are conveniently skipping the part where millions of ordinary Russians are being economically devastated by broad brush sanctions that punish the poor and middle class Russians who are innocent of war crimes, simply because they were unfortunate to be born in the wrong country and they may justifiably be afraid for their lives if they protest. For those who say beat the war drums, punish them all, jus…

Yes, it is unfortunate that ordinary Russian citizens are being harmed by the sanctions. But that is unavoidable and an acceptable side effect of weakening Putin’s war machine. We need to eliminate his ability to wage an inhuman war of aggression and asphyxiating the Russian economy that power’s his war machine is our best available option. War, including economic war, commonly involves massive harm to civilians. Tha…

I disagree. The suffering of Russian people is very avoidable. For example if the US and Germany had the political and economic will to stop buying oil from Russia and thereby directly funding Putin’s war.

Instead they chose broad indiscriminate sanctions that, while politically convenient are absolutely devastating to everyday Russian plebs. The Ruble has collapsed leading to hyperinflation on everyday goods the people need to survive.

Many innocent Russians will die directly because of the actions of the west. Their blood will be on our hands.

Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#654

Post by pelasaco »

SXX wrote: post #615
pelasaco wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but do we all agree that the World history would be different if the ordinary german people would oppose the concentration camps and genocide? The ordinary russian people are IMO in the same position right now. They. Have. To stop. Putin!

Warning: I do not support this war in any way. Or Putin, or his propoganda and cronies. And I also supported opposition in Russia financially as much as I could afford. And I publicly codemned this war. Yet here is the problem: western countries allowed Putins regime to exist and grow in it's power for 15+ years and no one cared until this terrible war started. But before there been a lot of other events. No one gave…

> Around 2012 mass protests in Russia was supressed and a lot of people landed in prison. Some opposition leaders were killed.

"Maximum penalties were fines of several thousand rubles or imposed labor of up to 200 hours" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011%E2%80%932013_Russian_prot...

That's how it works, but can he incarcerate millions of people?

We have good examples of non-violent protests that won against such regimes:

We did in GDR. We went to te streets. The machine guns were mounted on the top of every single train station. We went to the streets anyway. Not with stones, but candle lights.

We have examples as in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otpor#Strategy_and_tactics

We have literature about it https://www.nonviolent-conflict.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/...

We have as well examples of violent protests through the History that worked (I don't support it, but we cannot deny their efficiency) https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/how-violent-protests-...

Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#655

Post by dash2 »

moonchrome wrote: post #505
artyomxyz wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some way you’re right. But it’s important to note that we haven’t chosen this government, we haven’t chosen this country we live in. I personally lost any hope to change it one year earlier after participating in pro-Navalny protests. Now, I just don’t want to have anything in common with this government. I’m choosing another one. And I’m not going to pay taxes to Russian government anymore

>But it’s important to note that we haven’t chosen this government, we haven’t chosen this country we live in. From my perspective this is the only meaningful change you can make. If my government ever starts getting in my way too much I'll find another one. Voting with my feet literally. We have this luxury as in-demand professionals. Kind of hard for me to empathize with Russian developers when they had decades to…

Even among developers not everyone is footloose. People have parents to take care of, they get married, they have dogs. Or they just care about their country even if they hate its government. Remember Leipzig in 1989? The first slogan was Wir wollen raus. But then it changed to Wir bleiben hier.

Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#656

Post by [deleted] »

vhgyu75e6u wrote: post #626
hatsubishi wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spain is a very rich country though, 10th in the world by total wealth. What you're comparing is the current GDP, which is a different thing than being rich, it's production. In Spain production may be lower but still people enjoy a great quality of life because they are living of the wealth generated before, i.e. everything is extremely cheap including real estate.

> everything is extremely cheap including real estate If you have the salary of SV sure, the real state is cheap but for those working and living in Spain it is not

[deleted]

Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#657

Post by nine_zeros »

konart wrote: post #540
foxfluff wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The sadder truth may be that Russians might not be interested in removing Putin. Decades of propaganda, murdering of opposition, and authoritarian response to protests has grown a people that largely believes in their leader and is also afraid to openly oppose authority.

The sadder truth may be that you won't be getting anything much better than Putin from Russia in its current state.

This is not true. Even just the opposition party leader Navalny is good enough. Good people exist in Russia. Putin just needs to be removed from the helm.

Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#658

Post by cutemonster »

moonchrome wrote: post #505
artyomxyz wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some way you’re right. But it’s important to note that we haven’t chosen this government, we haven’t chosen this country we live in. I personally lost any hope to change it one year earlier after participating in pro-Navalny protests. Now, I just don’t want to have anything in common with this government. I’m choosing another one. And I’m not going to pay taxes to Russian government anymore

>But it’s important to note that we haven’t chosen this government, we haven’t chosen this country we live in. From my perspective this is the only meaningful change you can make. If my government ever starts getting in my way too much I'll find another one. Voting with my feet literally. We have this luxury as in-demand professionals. Kind of hard for me to empathize with Russian developers when they had decades to…

> they had decades to make this move

But friends, family and loved ones where they live

Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#659

Post by zelphirkalt »

moonchrome wrote: post #602
SXX wrote: post #583

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah we (IT crowd of Russia) had time to leave and wanted to leave and planned to leave. But even as programmer it's can be just hard to immigrate without losing 3-5 years of your life in the middle. Also losing all you friends and social circle isn't fun. I already lived abroad for 3-months / 6-months / 3-years and I know what how it feels to move countries. I personally had amazing personal projects going on and fi…

What do you mean losing years ? It might be a bit tough depending on visa issues and so on but none of my friends that emigrated describe it as losing years. They are all working in their field, some are progressing insanely in their careers (especially compared to how they were doing back home). I mean I know it's anecdotal, and I've read some horror stories about employer visa abuse but assuming that's the default…

Depending on the country you immigrate in, there might be a language barrier, general mistrust and many other issues like finding a place to live (flat, house, etc.). Some qualifications differ, but of course in IT the definitions of roles is a bit vague, so it is less of an impact. Generally Russian IT people have the a stereotype going for them, to be very capable, at least where I am from. Losing friends and contacts is also something that will take time to build up again.

Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#660

Post by ChuckNorris89 »

sharpneli wrote: post #438
dan-robertson wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a counter argument is that these measures allow the situation to be described in Russia as a ‘west vs Russia’ situation which lines up well with media narratives people have been hearing for years rather than a ‘Russian army sent to kill Ukrainians’ which is less popular (eg many Russians will have close ties to some people in Ukraine). It feels to me that the best thing western governments could do is to sig…

It's abundantly clear what the conditions are: Stop the attack against their neighbour and the sanctions are lifted. Anything less let's Putin get away once again. And right now every country in Europe, and their citizens, are sick of Putin getting away every single time. I do have a personal stake in this. We're the only western neighbour of Russia that is not in NATO and has not been attacked by them after the fall…

>We're the only western neighbour of Russia that is not in NATO and has not been attacked by them after the fall of Soviet Union. We're basically next

Moldova?

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