I’d be wary of hoping for a popular revolt against Putin- typically when people in a country feel under attack they rally in support of whoever the leadership is. Look at George bush’s approval rating right after 9/11. When people are scared they look to whoever is in charge to protect them. This might be an exception to the extent that Russians feel that the wounds were self-inflicted. But they may also start calling for retaliation against the west, if they feel that their country is being attacked unfairly. It’s hard to say.
Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends
191–200 of 933 posts
Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends
#192No one thinks that a regular Ivan from some russian city (on his own) is responsible for the war and should suffer. And I see how you could (and probably should, at some level) feel sorry for russians fleeing the country.
But this is the only way to tell them that they -- collective Ivans, Russian society as a whole -- should stand up and act: they should articulate their content, they should protest against putin's policy, and they should stop the war (an alternative would be to accept Ukraine to NATO and finish this war is a day, but that won't happen).
While they're suffering economically, the suffering of Ukrainians is just on another level -- it's not about restrictions (e.g. no ikea or facebook or apple products) or money (inflation), it's about flattened cities and destroyed lives.
I woke up as I heard bombs falling on my city, and I definitely haven't felt any sympathy for russians since then.
If they feel they don't support their country's aggression towards Ukraine, they should go protest and stop it -- even at risk of being fined or imprisoned. Otherwise they should just embrace all sanctions and become North Korea imho.
Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends
#193The only people that can stop Putin are the russian People.
Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends
#194Earlier quoted context omitted.
[disclaimer: Ukrainian here] > Older generation (who are pro-Russian) suggested being careful around young people as they may be hostile to Russians, even those who are running away from Putin Of course, instead of even attempting to change your country, where there is no war on its territory, you flee. Why should they be kind to you? > The disheartening thing is that even if you never supported Putin, other countrie…
Leaving is an effective way of changing it.
On the contrary. Leaving results in cementing the status quo because the population that remains are blind Putin followers.
Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends
#195Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm talking about ALL the people that are against Putin. Which if this guy is to be believed is most of the people. They are not going to kill most of their own people. A million people marching in Moscow would change minds.
I agree it would change minds. And at the same time I'm pretty sure it would end in a bloodbath. Passive resistance against a dictatorship is a lot safer than active resistance. Of course the latter sends a more powerful message but it makes it obvious who to target, when and where and the reflexive response will be to lash out. Still, there is safety in numbers so maybe it would work. But I would not immediately bet…
There are already young people brave enough to protest with just 2000 people protesting.
I'm talking about a million people standing outside and walking towards the Red Square, shaking their keys. If Russians cannot manage this, then I do not have sympathy whatsoever.
Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends
#196Earlier quoted context omitted.
Quoted post unavailable.
This attitude doesn't square with the dense bureaucracy, unavoidable surveillance, and complete monopoly on violence that modern nations hold. Especially in a place like Russia, where "organizing" is nearly impossible because opposition leaders have a bad habit of accidentally eating plutonium and nerve agents.
It has been far easier to protest against Putin than most of the prior Soviet regime (except for the very end of the USSR).
So far as we know Putin does not yet operate massive extermination camps and labor gulags as in the prior USSR. He is not yet rounding up and exterminating large groups of the population.
Putin is meek compared to Stalin.
The apologist complaints I'm seeing in regards to Russia and protesting, is that there is a cost to going against Putin. Yes, there certainly is. Of course there is. And there's a cost in Ukrainian blood in not, a cost the Russian people are responsible for.
The Russian people don't get to have their cake and eat it too. They don't get to enjoy the prior good times (relatively speaking) under Putin, cheering him and his ways on when it was convenient, and then not get credit for the blood Putin is spilling in their name now. This machine Putin has built is also partially their responsibility.
A lot of Russians may have to die to stop Putin. That's their responsibility to shoulder for tolerating Putin's regime from the early days when he promptly began committing war crimes and robbing the Russian people of human rights. Or the majority can keep doing nothing and it might keep getting worse, keep getting harder to remove him, and he might move into Stalin mode and start genociding groups he dislikes.
Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends
#197Earlier quoted context omitted.
Everywhere I've seen anyone motivate restrictions on Russian citizens it's been about pushing them to revolt against their government, not about punishing. I don't know whether it makes sense, but it does seem like one of few avenues to try to get rid of putin that has low chance of resulting in atomic war.
At this point, it doesn't look at all like we can practically expect a popular revolt. For me there are two outcomes to target with the sanctions: * Make life unpleasant enough for the oligarchs that they replace Putin with someone less intent on ruining the nice thing they had going. * Handicap Russia's ability to wage war. This includes eliminating their ability to buy supplies and destroying their morale. It's the…
It would be great if Oligarchs around the world were uncomfortable.
This should be and opportunity to catalogue just exactly who the oligarchs are and what are their assets and how are they affected.
Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends
#198Earlier quoted context omitted.
>Fleeing the country is a strong peaceful revolt on the other hand No, it just ensures that the only people left in Russia are the ones who support Putin. And like I said, Ukrainians have no choice. Why should Russians? As another poster said, even autocracies need a certain level of support to operate. It's not fair to punish Russians but their country is literally waging a full scale war while threatening the west…
The Nazis were stopped from outside and the USSR by people from it's government because of it's economic downfall.
> The Nazis were stopped from outside
Yes, after killing 30 million+ people. It would have been much easier if Germans didn't enable them or someone took out Hitler in 1938.
And we punished Germany for generations because of it. The US still has military bases there to this day.
Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends
#199Earlier quoted context omitted.
Everywhere I've seen anyone motivate restrictions on Russian citizens it's been about pushing them to revolt against their government, not about punishing. I don't know whether it makes sense, but it does seem like one of few avenues to try to get rid of putin that has low chance of resulting in atomic war.
Americans about US wars: 'we cannot do anything about our government - they engage in wars and we couldn't stop them if we tried' Americans about Russian wars: 'the average Joes need to go out to the streets and bring Putin down'
this is a silly caricature.
historically, a majority of Americans supported both the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq when they started, and public opinion did not turn against them for several years, and even then it was not an overwhelming majority.
Obama campaigned on the folly of those wars but chose to stay involved because it was believed by many that some level of success could yet be achieved for the people in those countries, who were in many cases partnering with the US.
Nevertheless, the eventual unpopularity of those wars did in fact lead to "regime change" in the US, because the US is a (somewhat) functioning democracy.
Americans are in fact at this very moment preventing the US from engaging in this war in Ukraine.
Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends
#200Earlier quoted context omitted.
Repeating the parent comment - What's the option, though? What better things can we do to help the > 1,000,000 Ukrainian refugees, and all the other millions that are currently being bombed by Russia? Putin _is_ getting his power from the Russian people. It's unfortunate they believe his lies, but they do, and that's what makes him strong.
to be honest, I don't know, that is the reason I left, I have no hope and don't know how to change things. What could help is all these companies that are blocking Russians sending information to Russians about this war and about Putin's actions. If all Russians on Google, Playstation and etc saw more information it would help get through the blockade. Companies haven't been doing it because it requires more effort a…
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