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Last Day of IKEA in Moscow
281–290 of 323 posts
Re: Last Day of IKEA in Moscow
#282Earlier quoted context omitted.
Just like when the west stood up to the US Government and stopped the Iraq war? It's easy to point the finger when you're far from the reality.
Try the Vietnam proxy war. And any sensible and rational being with non-zero knowledge of Iraq and Saddam's transgressions against humanity should support the Iraq war which was all about toppling him. Since you're clearly not one of those, here's some homework to get you started: Halabja massacre, Kuwait invasion.
Here's some for yourself to contemplate: The IBC project has recorded a range of at least 185,194 – 208,167 total violent civilian deaths through June 2020 in their database. Was this a justifying cost to toppling him? Was the decision the American Government's to make?
Those events you mention are also a full 13 years before the war in Iraq started, why the delay, why end the gulf war? If my memory recalls, there was a lot of noise around WMDs at the time and questionable evidence for justification.
Re: Last Day of IKEA in Moscow
#283Earlier quoted context omitted.
Just like when the west stood up to the US Government and stopped the Iraq war? It's easy to point the finger when you're far from the reality.
It was meant half as a snarky comment and half as a sad testimonial of human nature. I mean: You hear the news that Ikea is closing, you likely link it to the world news, you think "got to buy some last minute furniture". I know it is human. On the other hand: Lots of people protested the Iraq war. Lots of governments in the west did not participate in the coalition of the willing and protested (I know Germany under…
That helpless perception you feel against the US Government is likely the same thing the average decent-minded Russian is feeling right now? At least it's unlikely you'd get 15 years protesting in the West.
Re: Last Day of IKEA in Moscow
#284Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's not the problem what we think they can get away with. The problem is what they think they can can get away with. And in what time frame. They obviously operate in a different frame of reference. Their military doctrine is also different from ours, apart from the obvious shortcomings at the moment. But it doesn't matter militaryly, they don't fight us, they fight the Ukraine. Because of their bloody nukes. A sham…
> They want status quo ante 1997 They can want whatever they want, doesn't mean they are going to get it. > They don't fight us, they fight the Ukraine. They don't fight us, they fight Poland! This sort of thing doesn't really work.
Poland is NATO, other ballpark.
>> They can want whatever they want, doesn't mean they are going to get it.
They won't.
>> This sort of thing doesn't really work.
They somehow missed that.
They will pay.
Re: Last Day of IKEA in Moscow
#285Earlier quoted context omitted.
It is not about defending but presenting the point of view. It is easy to find articles explaining the Taliban point of view and why they had support in Afghanistan (I even saw a very interesting 5 hours documentary on the national french television not long ago with interviews of prominent talibans). It is not easy to find articles explaining the Ukrainian point of view in current Russian media.
> It is not easy to find articles explaining the Ukrainian point of view Is it? Or is it just like the documentary you mention, somehow factual but leaving you only with contempt and outrage?
If I had access to true Taliban information, produced by Talibans honestly explaining their positions , what they do, what they want their world to be like, etc, do you think it's likely I would just say "oh sure, it makes sense, I've been brainwashed into thinking you were something completely different"?
Re: Last Day of IKEA in Moscow
#286Earlier quoted context omitted.
> They want status quo ante 1997 They can want whatever they want, doesn't mean they are going to get it. > They don't fight us, they fight the Ukraine. They don't fight us, they fight Poland! This sort of thing doesn't really work.
Poland is NATO, other ballpark. >> They can want whatever they want, doesn't mean they are going to get it. They won't. >> This sort of thing doesn't really work. They somehow missed that. They will pay.
I think you missed the reference.
Re: Last Day of IKEA in Moscow
#287Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't think I've seen that take and you may be mixing up what he says with what he thinks, always confusing when talking about blatant liars. I've seen people saying that he thought he could force them to install a pro-russian regime (or further split the country) with shock and awe and merely the threat of great violence and underestimated the will and ability to resist, and overestimated his ability to project po…
What Putin thinks only Putin knows, everybody else is reading the tea leaves.
Yes, but when people like Meirschiemer predicted this a decade ago, and blame the US and Ukraine for it because this is the obvious response to Ukraine trying to leave the Russian sphere of influence and other people who blame Putin also predicted it a decade ago for basically the same reasons, and also correctly predicted it last month when the "don't blame Putin" side was wrong, it seems theres a general consensus on what's happening even if who to 'blame' is apparently up for debate.
Re: Last Day of IKEA in Moscow
#288Earlier quoted context omitted.
What Putin thinks only Putin knows, everybody else is reading the tea leaves.
Yes, but when people like Meirschiemer predicted this a decade ago, and blame the US and Ukraine for it because this is the obvious response to Ukraine trying to leave the Russian sphere of influence and other people who blame Putin also predicted it a decade ago for basically the same reasons, and also correctly predicted it last month when the "don't blame Putin" side was wrong, it seems theres a general consensus…
Yes, we know, whatever Putin does is also the fault of the West. Clearly, Europe and the USA are responsible for Russia invading Ukraine. /s
'Look at what you made him do'...
> Yes, but when people like Meirschiemer predicted this a decade ago
Seriously: I'm getting a a bit tired of people who can't even spell "Mearsheimer" are trotting him out at every opportunity to make it clear that he predicted all this and more, and that therefore 'the West is at fault here'.
So what? Seeing Ukraine and the Baltics as the obvious potential flashpoints in Europe does not require any degree of genius. The question that you forgot to ask was: was it inevitable or not? And if it was then whatever the response the West made was irrelevant, dictators do as they do.
I predict that Russia will at some point attempt to take over the Suwalki gap. When I'm proven right that won't amount to a thing, it is as logical as the sun coming up tomorrow morning.
Re: Last Day of IKEA in Moscow
#289Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, but when people like Meirschiemer predicted this a decade ago, and blame the US and Ukraine for it because this is the obvious response to Ukraine trying to leave the Russian sphere of influence and other people who blame Putin also predicted it a decade ago for basically the same reasons, and also correctly predicted it last month when the "don't blame Putin" side was wrong, it seems theres a general consensus…
Yes, we know, whatever Putin does is also the fault of the West. Clearly, Europe and the USA are responsible for Russia invading Ukraine. /s 'Look at what you made him do'... > Yes, but when people like Meirschiemer predicted this a decade ago Seriously: I'm getting a a bit tired of people who can't even spell "Mearsheimer" are trotting him out at every opportunity to make it clear that he predicted all this and more…
I'm not sure you read to the end of my comment.
As far as I'm aware, all sides think this is happening for the same reason, they only disagree about whose fault it is.
You raised the possibility that Putin invaded accidentally because someone told him Ukraine wanted to be invaded and he believed them, I don't think that adds up and if anyone is actually saying that it's more likely Russian propaganda than a serious attempt to understand Putin's motives.
I'd heard the Russian conscripts sent in to kill and be killed in Ukraine had been told that was what was going to happen, but not sure how far up the chain the lie is supposed to have started, and how many actually believed it.
Re: Last Day of IKEA in Moscow
#290Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, we know, whatever Putin does is also the fault of the West. Clearly, Europe and the USA are responsible for Russia invading Ukraine. /s 'Look at what you made him do'... > Yes, but when people like Meirschiemer predicted this a decade ago Seriously: I'm getting a a bit tired of people who can't even spell "Mearsheimer" are trotting him out at every opportunity to make it clear that he predicted all this and more…
I'm not sure you read to the end of my comment. As far as I'm aware, all sides think this is happening for the same reason, they only disagree about whose fault it is. You raised the possibility that Putin invaded accidentally because someone told him Ukraine wanted to be invaded and he believed them, I don't think that adds up and if anyone is actually saying that it's more likely Russian propaganda than a serious a…
Do not underestimate the degree of isolation for dictators in power. Nobody dares to bring the bad news, there is a fair chance that Putin is so isolated that he has no idea anymore what is really going on.
To bring bad news to a person like Putin is an act of bravery.
Have a look at that video of him belittling his chief of security and how the guy totally deflates. And that was only on the suggestion that maybe things weren't really going to plan.
I think there is a distinct possibility that Putin did not have all the facts before embarking on this invasion. And with every day that it continues Russia is more rather than less committed to see it through, whatever the price because they need to be able to declare victory in some way, even if that means that in the whole of Ukraine there isn't a single brick standing on another. Rationality went out the window last week, it likely won't be back for a while.