Tim Cook tells employees the return to offices will begin on April 11th • Hacker News Board

Re: Tim Cook tells employees the return to offices will begin on April 11th

#421

Post by whack » Sat, Mar 05, 2022, 2:18 AM UTC

BlargMcLarg wrote: post #312

Ntrails wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is still primarily an on-site company. At some point I would like people to quit vilifying a completely legitimate business setup because it doesn't fit their world view. I want to be in the office, and I prefer it when my coworkers are there too. I respect that not everyone feels the same - but I do think it is up to the employer to decide. So I will be picking companies that suit my preferences.

But there is legitimate reason to villify. I can't speak for Apple specifically, but many companies are no longer matching the CoL increases. Housing prices are steadily increasing, and so is rent. Many have to resort to longer commutes, buying cars, and such. All of these have detrimental effects to the environment, mental health or both. Pushing people back to the office with nothing else is incredibly tonedeaf to…

You may not like hearing this but if you're a white-collar worker earning 6 figures and guaranteed to continue earning 6 figures for the rest of your career, you aren't entitled to CoL increases. Your employer is not a villain nor are they morally culpable just because they've made a business decision around how much salary increases they want to give their already privileged employees. Or a business decision regarding their work-from-home policy.

If you're not happy, leave and work for a company that better matches what you're looking for. I would be furious if my ex-employer was giving me bad references just because I wanted to work-from-home or asked for a higher salary. And I would similarly not go around vilifying my ex-employer just because they wanted to offer me a lower salary or have me in the office regularly.

Re: Tim Cook tells employees the return to offices will begin on April 11th

#422

Post by crossroadsguy » Sat, Mar 05, 2022, 2:22 AM UTC

tombert wrote: post #345

VBprogrammer wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When we went fully remote, suddenly it seems like any compunctions about that vanished; I would have meetings until 9pm 3 nights a week This is why there is a decline button next to the accept button. An outage or something disastrous, sure I'll stay online till midnight to help in anyway I can; a regular status update type meeting, no way.

I didn't feel like that was really an option. It became recurring meetings three times a week, and I got the vibe of "if you don't go, it's gonna look bad".

I completely agree with and get what you’re saying. It does feel like that. And if you think you won’t be getting another job you’d feel that way strongly.

But it takes just once. At the new starup I am working I simply pressed “Decline” for “all events” that were out of my timezone except the ones that happen 3-4 times a month total.

Blocked my calendar after 6pm with an automated message clearly mentioning that it was night for me and ask the person to reach out about it and that if it’s a recurring meeting I simply won’t be able to attend.

It’s been 6 months since and it has worked fine. Some other people started doing it in my country after that. Also US colleagues now ask us, earlier they assumed we will just be there.

And yes, I was ready to resign if someone even someone above me in hierarchy even so much as questioned the autonomy of my personal time that’s other than those 8 hours on weekday.

It’s not like I have too much financial cushion, I don’t. But I realised it’s not worth it and when you start saying yes to it, it keeps increasing, keeps piling up. Never stops, never comes down. Saying no sooner is better than saying no late.

Just like dictators and autocrats such companies feed on our fears. The moment we lose them they either run into the ground or they fall in line.

Re: Tim Cook tells employees the return to offices will begin on April 11th

#423

Post by erosenbe0 » Sat, Mar 05, 2022, 2:22 AM UTC

yodsanklai wrote: post #387

renewiltord wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least for the subset of small that are startups, small companies vs big companies isn’t a comp discussion. You will win on comp going to the smaller guys. It’s whether you want to burn for the moon or you want to live a comfortable upper middle class life. FAANG is 70% retirees, 30% dipole candle burners. And the 30% provide the value, while the 70% are along for the ride.

I work in a FAANG and I can tell you than nobody in my team is slacking. Quite the opposite. Everybody is smart and working hard, there's no way you can cruise. I think all new members work even on weekends. A colleague of mine got fired because he didn't meet expectations for his level. He would have been totally fine in other companies. Turnover is high despite the high compensation. I'm sure it depends on the comp…

Yes, there are way less slackers in FAANG. In the regular marketplace, a slacker who gets on the wrong side of management or just stale can usually find a comparable gig. FAANG, given recent stock market gains, pays at least twice the US average and matching that can be a serious stretch, particularly outside Bay Area.

Re: Tim Cook tells employees the return to offices will begin on April 11th

#424

Post by astrange » Sat, Mar 05, 2022, 2:25 AM UTC

KerrAvon wrote: post #414

astrange wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, people were always saying it but have only accidentally become correct now due to sufficient vaccination and omicron's lower fatality. The risk of death from COVID is now a bit less than the flu. Note it's still bad, you don't want to catch it. But you don't want to catch the flu either. People who think the flu is nothing are confusing it with a common cold - I got a flu Jan 2020 and couldn't get out of bed for…

Long COVID says hello.

That exists but it's overrated, the numbers include people who have a cough a month later.

The more important point is we've just been ignoring every other "long X" condition, like multiple sclerosis.

Re: Tim Cook tells employees the return to offices will begin on April 11th

#425

Post by chipotle_coyote » Sat, Mar 05, 2022, 2:26 AM UTC

astrange wrote: post #370

chipotle_coyote wrote: post #324

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> I can't speak for Apple specifically, but many companies are no longer matching the CoL increases. Housing prices are steadily increasing, and so is rent. I can't help but wonder if this is the flip side to the Silicon Valley mantra of "if you want a raise, job hop," where hitting your four-year anniversary with the same company makes you an old-timer and gets people on HN asking you if you're stupid. (Hopefully mo…

> I can't help but wonder if this is the flip side to the Silicon Valley mantra of "if you want a raise, job hop," where hitting your four-year anniversary with the same company makes you an old-timer and gets people on HN asking you if you're stupid. (Hopefully more politely than that, but that's absolutely the subtext of some recent message threads I've seen.) I think that comes from misreading stats. If a company…

Well, it comes from reading HN. :) That's clearly anecdotal, but if you're a regular reader you've surely come across the job-hopping advice here! I've seen "the way you get a raise is by switching companies" as advice over and over and over here, and I don't think it's just a small selection of malcontents I just keep running into.

Companies whose primary business is hardware seem to be more likely to keep people around for longer periods of time -- Apple, Intel, Cisco, National Semiconductor back when they were a going concern. Software companies, though, particularly ones in Silicon Valley (or following a Silicon Valley ethos)? As someone who's going to hit their four-year anniversary at their current workplace in a week, I feel like the oddball.

Re: Tim Cook tells employees the return to offices will begin on April 11th

#426

Post by anothernewdude » Sat, Mar 05, 2022, 2:30 AM UTC

I'm currently making a killing as a remote contractor for several places that won't allow their own developers to work remotely. These places are just making it easy to poach their own talent.

Re: Tim Cook tells employees the return to offices will begin on April 11th

#427

Post by crossroadsguy » Sat, Mar 05, 2022, 2:31 AM UTC

tharkun__ wrote: post #354

tombert wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't feel like that was really an option. It became recurring meetings three times a week, and I got the vibe of "if you don't go, it's gonna look bad".

It may or may not have been an option. If you never try it definitely wasn't an option. I have never worked at a FAANG myself, so this might not be something that works in those places. But what I do is to simply put "Out of Office" on my calendar outside of my core working hours. I don't even have to decline. I can honestly say that it was automated and I never even saw their invite. If someone complained about it I…

That no office communication on personal phone has worked wonders for me as well. And my personal numbers is for emergencies only.

Not turning up last minute meetings have also worked well. I mean I was shocked but people actually need to be told you’re not available at one ping and then they mend their ways. Start saying yes, it gets worse.

Re: Tim Cook tells employees the return to offices will begin on April 11th

#428

Post by erosenbe0 » Sat, Mar 05, 2022, 2:32 AM UTC

askonomm wrote: post #396

giantrobot wrote: post #280

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> The people talking about working long hours at Apple are getting paid commensurately. Not really. Most divisions in SWE do stack ranking (unofficially). The top quintile (decile in some groups) gets a majority of compensation at review time. The bottom half is lucky to get a cost of living adjustment to their base pay. They likely will get no RSUs and little if any cash bonus. Despite the disparity in compensation…

So then that makes me wonder, why work there? For the prestige? For having a bad-ass CV entry? I've spent my 11 year career working in start-ups and companies that nobody knows about, I get paid enough to be in top 2% earners in EU, I never work more than 40h a week because that simply isn't legal for an employer to tell me to do unless it explicitly states so in my contract, and none of my contracts have so far stat…

It's all in the compensation.

FAANG and a few fintech operations pay the big USD. The lower bound on FAANG senior software engineers is apparently above or barely overlaps the upper bound for other massively profitable companies like Intel. So you can't even achieve FAANG comp most places unless you a department director.

Re: Tim Cook tells employees the return to offices will begin on April 11th

#429

Post by crossroadsguy » Sat, Mar 05, 2022, 2:34 AM UTC

andrei_says_ wrote: post #413

tombert wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't feel like that was really an option. It became recurring meetings three times a week, and I got the vibe of "if you don't go, it's gonna look bad".

What does “look bad” mean exactly? Never promoted? Fired?

It just means “fear and inertia”, mostly unfounded and even if not simply not worth it. It’s just that.

Suffered from it long. Then one day I did the opposite and never looked back.

Re: Tim Cook tells employees the return to offices will begin on April 11th

#430

Post by anothernewdude » Sat, Mar 05, 2022, 2:34 AM UTC

angryasian wrote: post #106

song wrote: post #30

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I have worked in remote companies and companies that had butt in chair requirements, so far all the remote companies have been more innovative and had more cross talk between teams than the companies that required people to be in an office all day, every day. Of course, that's just my experience but I do have a feeling that certain type of people feel that there's more innovation around coffee and chance encounter be…

I'm interested in how you accomplish this. Everything has to be scheduled in a meeting these days, and meeting burn out over zoom is real. Where as in the office it was just walking around and seeing someone in an elevator, the hall, "hey lets catch up" or "you have a minute" or "lets get lunch" these types of interactions just don't happen anymore

If you can't have a chat in some messaging software turn into a quick call, and that quick call finishes the instance it should, then I don't know what you're doing.

Frankly I do this even when I'm in the same office, because I can keep working while on a call.

Scheduled? Just have a group chat with the participants, if one person misses the call, no big deal. You should be syncing often enough that it shouldn't matter.

As for the informal meet-ups, if there's a need, you go chat then call. If there isn't a need, then there's no value lost.