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Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

reuters.com

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Re: Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

#441

Post by eru »

manquer wrote: post #172
jtsuken wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The monitoring system has been shot down on 1 Sep. Here is the statement from the Nuclear Agency in Ukraine: On March 1, 2022 at 11:40 as a result of rocket impact, the communication network of Zaporizhzhya NPP was damaged. As a result, the Automated Radiation Monitoring System (ARMS) of the Zaporizhzhya Nuclear Power Plant lost its full functionality and stopped the transmission of data to the international radiatio…

1 September ? It doesn't seem likely it was shot 6 months ago. You mean 1st March ?

That's what the quote says, too.

Re: Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

#442

Post by nl »

jazzyjackson wrote: post #410
wyager wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One is fighting to survive an attack by the other. This statement, while true, changes denotation depending on the scale at which you view this conflict. If you view it as a conflict between Russia and Ukraine, the existential threat is to Ukraine. If you view it as a conflict between Russia and NATO, the existential threat is to Russia.

I don't quite understand Russia's paranoia around NATO. Estonia, Lithuania, and Latvia already border Russia (+ Poland if you count Kaliningrad). Why is it such a big deal for Ukraine to enter a defense pact, unless Russia wants to retain the right to invade when they see fit? Not trying to be rhetorical, this existential threat to Russia is news to me.

Russia _hates_ that Estonia, Lithuania, and Latvia are all part of NATO.

But when they were accepted Putin didn't feel strong enough to do anything about it.

Russia has been advancing it's "sphere of influence" political theory, whereby independent countries with that "sphere of influence" don't get the right to make their own alliances. That "sphere of influence" includes all Eastern European countries that border on Russia at least.

It hasn't been widely reported on, but the initial demand that led to this war was that NATO withdraw all infrastructure install in post 1997 expansions:

Russia published two lists of demands — for Washington and for NATO — the latter calling for the removal of all NATO military infrastructure installed in Eastern European countries after 1997, effectively attempting to rework the consequences of the Soviet Union’s collapse in 1991, which left Russia weakened for years.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/12/17/ukraine-russ...

Re: Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

#443

Post by [deleted] »

ummonk wrote: post #266
TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's reassuring in that meltdown is very unlikely. But who the actual fuck shells a nuclear plant? That's not reassuring at all. It's also against international law.

Nobody shelled a nuclear plant. Russian forces drove into the parking lot of a nuclear plant, had two RPGs fired upon them from an administrative building and fired machine guns back at the administrative building. There were fires and after some time the fighting was sorted out and firefighters put out the fire.

[deleted]

Re: Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

#444

Post by baskethead »

jtsuken wrote: post #164
Gustomaximus wrote: post #12

Live stream from plant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYUT36YGOh8 Automated Radiation Monitoring system: https://www.npp.zp.ua/en/safety/arms

Just realised that the point I've made in response to a comment probably should be a level higher: Don't trust the radiation monitoring system , the actual monitoring system has been destroyed by a rocket impact three days ago. The monitoring system has been shot down on 1 Sep. Here is the statement from the Nuclear Agency in Ukraine: On March 1, 2022 at 11:40 as a result of rocket impact, the communication network o…

Not great, not terrible.

Re: Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

#445

Post by eru »

yabones wrote: post #314

This has been a real reckoning for me, as somebody who has historically been very pro-nuclear. Quite simply, humanity is too good at screwing things up to harness such a fundamentally powerful and dangerous source of power. It requires a commitment to long lasting peace and stability that we're just not capable of.

This is bad, but nuclear isn't uniquely dangerous here: just imagine the same kind of shelling around a large dam.

Re: Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

#446

Post by W-Stool »

TillE wrote: post #368
sidibe wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't surprise me if they believe that considering the ridiculous stream of fantasy being spewed out of Russian leader and media.

Every country has its propaganda and lies, but they're generally couched in half-truths. It's truly remarkable how the Russian flavor of misinformation sounds just like a pathological liar making up wild bullshit that nobody could possibly take seriously. That's been a tradition for decades, as far as I know.

Reminds me of a recent US President. Very recent ...

Re: Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

#447

Post by jasonfarnon »

jazzyjackson wrote: post #410
wyager wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One is fighting to survive an attack by the other. This statement, while true, changes denotation depending on the scale at which you view this conflict. If you view it as a conflict between Russia and Ukraine, the existential threat is to Ukraine. If you view it as a conflict between Russia and NATO, the existential threat is to Russia.

I don't quite understand Russia's paranoia around NATO. Estonia, Lithuania, and Latvia already border Russia (+ Poland if you count Kaliningrad). Why is it such a big deal for Ukraine to enter a defense pact, unless Russia wants to retain the right to invade when they see fit? Not trying to be rhetorical, this existential threat to Russia is news to me.

From what I understand of world politics, what is viewed by one as defensive is often viewed by another as offensive. Eg Monroe doctrine.

Re: Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

#448

Post by TulliusCicero »

monocasa wrote: post #438
TulliusCicero wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could say this about any military aggression from Russia though. "Putin taking Estonia isn't as bad as nuclear annihilation." "Putin taking Berlin isn't as bad as nuclear annihilation." "Putin taking DC isn't as bad as nuclear annihilation." What if he just goes, "I'm invading western Europe now too, and if you fight back I launch the nukes"? Do we just roll over and say that it's better to surrender than fight?

All of those countries are NATO members.

So? What if Putin threatens nuclear annihilation anyway?

Re: Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

#449

Post by nl »

csee wrote: post #400
RikNieu wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can newer plants be bombed? Can they be abandoned?

See molten salt reactors. There are automatic mechanisms that are supposed to prevent worst case situations.

Molten salt reactors are designed to avoid meltdowns.

But most of the harm at Chernobyl was from the explosion. There is nothing in a molten salt reactor that makes them any safer than Chernobyl if the reactor containment is breached.

Massive amounts of highly radioactive particles will be ejected into the atmosphere in exactly the same way as happened at Chernobyl.

Molten salt advocates will say "yes, but what could possibly breach the reactor if there is no meltdown". Well we almost saw the answer to that today.

Re: Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

#450

Post by nl »

formerlurker wrote: post #431
MichaelMoser123 wrote: post #312

https://www.pravda.com.ua/rus/news/2022/03/4/7328008/ (link in Russian, that's a big newspaper in Ukraine) the units of chechen warlord Kadyrov are fighting inside the building of the power station, and are said to be laying mines, as a means of exerting pressure. What could go wrong... This kadyrov is totally mad, they introduced Sharia law in their chechen republic, and putin doesn't want to interfer with this madn…

Thank you for pointing out that the plant is 6 times bigger. I watched the HBO series Chernobyl and it opened my eyes to the dangers of a nuclear meltdown. I hope the new containment tech is enough to avoid a disaster.

There is no "new containment tech" that contains a reactor breach.

Things like the (non-existent) molten salt reactor try to reduce the risk of a runaway meltdown, but do nothing to stop the danger if the reactor itself is broken open.

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