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Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

reuters.com

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Re: Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

#361

Post by TheSoftwareGuy »

colechristensen wrote: post #350
yabones wrote: post #314

This has been a real reckoning for me, as somebody who has historically been very pro-nuclear. Quite simply, humanity is too good at screwing things up to harness such a fundamentally powerful and dangerous source of power. It requires a commitment to long lasting peace and stability that we're just not capable of.

Humanity is fine, just some parts are quite far ahead of others. We just have to get rid of autocrats and authoritarianism. There will be some slides backwards as people in difficult situations value their opinions and risk aversion more than others’ freedoms, and there are plenty of places where people are just fine with their autocrats continuing to rule. Progress, for the most part, can’t be given. It is hopeful t…

> We just have to get rid of autocrats and authoritarianism

As if it were so easy!

Re: Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

#362

Post by Johnny555 »

veganhouseDJ wrote: post #353
21723 wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, which is fucking terrifying. You don't do war crimes unless you expect to get away with it, which means either you're fighting a war that more powerful nations don't care about, or you expect to win it. Putin can't win against NATO but he can make both sides lose. I used to think he was rational and only minorly evil, but now I'm not so sure of the rationality... and clearly he's more than minorly evil.

IMO you have to consider there is an information war going on so to me the only rational thing to do is take everything you think you know with a grain of salt. There probably is a tactical advantage from the Russian side to putting out the idea that Putin has gone crazy. Or he really has gone crazy. We can't really know but the fog of war spreading to social media does not seem like a great development.

There probably is a tactical advantage from the Russian side to putting out the idea that Putin has gone crazy.

What other explanation is there for invading a European country with close ties to the USA and NATO -- one claim for the invasion is that Putin was worried that Ukraine would join NATO, if they are that friendly to NATO, then he must have known that NATO would help fight.

Re: Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

#363

Post by colechristensen »

Johnny555 wrote: post #355
21723 wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, which is fucking terrifying. You don't do war crimes unless you expect to get away with it, which means either you're fighting a war that more powerful nations don't care about, or you expect to win it. Putin can't win against NATO but he can make both sides lose. I used to think he was rational and only minorly evil, but now I'm not so sure of the rationality... and clearly he's more than minorly evil.

You don't do war crimes unless you expect to get away with it, which means either you're fighting a war that more powerful nations don't care about, or you expect to win it. I think it's the later - Putin is not going to lose this war since he's racking up hundreds of billions if not trillions of dollars of damage and compensation for injury/death that Russia would have a hard time paying for if he admits defeat.

Or some powerful group with slightly more sense or at least ambition in Russia will stage a coup.

Re: Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

#364

Post by cmurf »

HL33tibCe7 wrote: post #135

Allegedly, Ukrainian firefighters were shot at by Russian troops. If true, then that’s another war crime to add to the growing list.

USSR was a Protocol 1 signatory, but Putin withdrew from Protocol 1 in 2019. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-russia-warcrimes-conventi...

This is either a plan for malice or it's incompetency, either way it's not good.

Re: Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

#365

Post by colechristensen »

TheSoftwareGuy wrote: post #361
colechristensen wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humanity is fine, just some parts are quite far ahead of others. We just have to get rid of autocrats and authoritarianism. There will be some slides backwards as people in difficult situations value their opinions and risk aversion more than others’ freedoms, and there are plenty of places where people are just fine with their autocrats continuing to rule. Progress, for the most part, can’t be given. It is hopeful t…

> We just have to get rid of autocrats and authoritarianism As if it were so easy!

A centuries long project which has, without doubt, seen much success.

Re: Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

#366

Post by ck2 »

archibaldJ wrote: post #322

I gradually stop seeing this as a war just for the freedom of the Ukrainian people. This is a war for the progress of humanity. A war between the new and old worlds. With more breakthroughs in nuclear fusion energy and policies [1], the gradual adoption of nuclear (as well as EV tech) will soon mark the end of old world. The implication of this is beyond anything anyone can conceive as we do not truly know what becom…

It's less a war than a temper tantrum by the world's only mafia-country trillionaire, facing his own guaranteed death soon turning 70

And he doesn't have to "win" via occupation, all he has to do is destroy the place setting it back decades.

If any country undoes all the sanctions and seized property while he's still alive, he's "won".

He doesn't care about the lives on either side and there will never be justice for that even if he ends up hung by his own people (impossible fantasy outcome).

Imagine how even more destructive he'd be if he had unlimited "free" power via fusion, I am really certain fusion will initially cause more war than stop them because the money saved will go into military spending and once you have that buildup, someone always wants to put it to use.

Re: Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

#367

Post by awb »

colechristensen wrote: post #350
yabones wrote: post #314

This has been a real reckoning for me, as somebody who has historically been very pro-nuclear. Quite simply, humanity is too good at screwing things up to harness such a fundamentally powerful and dangerous source of power. It requires a commitment to long lasting peace and stability that we're just not capable of.

Humanity is fine, just some parts are quite far ahead of others. We just have to get rid of autocrats and authoritarianism. There will be some slides backwards as people in difficult situations value their opinions and risk aversion more than others’ freedoms, and there are plenty of places where people are just fine with their autocrats continuing to rule. Progress, for the most part, can’t be given. It is hopeful t…

> We just have to get rid of autocrats and authoritarianism

And why not criminals while we’re at it?

Sounds like utopia.

The desire for power might be baked into humanity at a deep level.

Re: Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

#368

Post by TillE »

sidibe wrote: post #331
armada651 wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only public statement I've read is that the Russian Army is concerned the Ukrainians would use their Nuclear Power Plants as dirty bombs.

It doesn't surprise me if they believe that considering the ridiculous stream of fantasy being spewed out of Russian leader and media.

Every country has its propaganda and lies, but they're generally couched in half-truths. It's truly remarkable how the Russian flavor of misinformation sounds just like a pathological liar making up wild bullshit that nobody could possibly take seriously. That's been a tradition for decades, as far as I know.

Re: Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

#369

Post by dragonwriter »

cmurf wrote: post #364
HL33tibCe7 wrote: post #135

Allegedly, Ukrainian firefighters were shot at by Russian troops. If true, then that’s another war crime to add to the growing list.

USSR was a Protocol 1 signatory, but Putin withdrew from Protocol 1 in 2019. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-russia-warcrimes-conventi... This is either a plan for malice or it's incompetency, either way it's not good.

Whether or not Russia is a Protocol I party doesn't particularly matter here as the war crime at issue is viewed now as a matter of customary international law and is explicitly within the jurisdiction of the ICC; Rome Statute Article 8, 2.(b)(iv)

Re: Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

#370

Post by colechristensen »

Johnny555 wrote: post #362
veganhouseDJ wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO you have to consider there is an information war going on so to me the only rational thing to do is take everything you think you know with a grain of salt. There probably is a tactical advantage from the Russian side to putting out the idea that Putin has gone crazy. Or he really has gone crazy. We can't really know but the fog of war spreading to social media does not seem like a great development.

There probably is a tactical advantage from the Russian side to putting out the idea that Putin has gone crazy. What other explanation is there for invading a European country with close ties to the USA and NATO -- one claim for the invasion is that Putin was worried that Ukraine would join NATO, if they are that friendly to NATO, then he must have known that NATO would help fight.

There are quite a few loyal or sympathetic to Russia in Ukraine, due to propaganda and history, how many is hard to say and colored by your opinions. Hard to think not significantly fewer now than in the recent past.

Putin thought he would win quickly, get troops to lay down arms and overthrow the government. For whatever reason he was wrong, it seems clear this is what was expected but pushback has been more effective. Probably in no small way because organizing the logistics of such a large operation is hard and has not gone smoothly.

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