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Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

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Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#191

Post by quickthrowman »

endisneigh wrote: post #57
goto11 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The solution is obviously to punish those causing the harm directly, no? You mean direct war against Russia? That would certainly also cause collateral damage on innocents.

Fighting the people directly who are holding the guns will do less “collateral damage” than uniform discrimination of all Russians. I’m not a fan of violence in general, though. Ideally they’d find another way without killing anyone.

> Fighting the people directly who are holding the guns will do less “collateral damage” than uniform discrimination of all Russians.

Nuclear war between NATO and Russia would cause less collateral damage than Russian people not getting to play chess tournaments for an indefinite period of time?

I disagree.

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#192

Post by lupire »

joeman1000 wrote: post #190

No, this is not unfair. Everyone should be made to squirm until innocent Ukrainians AREN’T being bombed in their apartments. The pressure should apply absolutely everywhere. This persons right to play some stupid chess is meaningless when his country is slaughtering innocent people indiscriminately.

Then why aren't Norwegian chess players banned from chess pending the end of the war? Why do imaginary lines on map matter? Why is HN allowed to discuss anything except how to fight the Russian invasion?

Grischuk doesn't own Russia, Putin does.

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#193

Post by lupire »

mathisonturing wrote: post #101
TomGullen wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Of all the sports, I would have thought chess would be much less prone to politics because chess players are almost free agents. Are you at all aware of the history of chess?!?

Please share for those uninitiated like me

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess_(musical)

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#194

Post by lupire »

toolslive wrote: post #107
agambrahma wrote: post #92

Eh, punishing individuals like this seems pointless, especially _after_ they've made their personal stance clear. Or at least, it doesn't "advance the game of chess", which is what organizers should care more about. There is probably some creative middle ground to be found here, such as awarding them without recognizing Russia, etc.

They have been creative in the past too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Chess_Championship_1990#...

It happened just 3 months ago when Nepo played while Russia was under sanctions.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Chess_Championship_202...

and of course the same thing happened in the Olympics a few weeks ago!

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#195

Post by thway0987 »

throwaway5752 wrote: post #139
moralestapia wrote: post #118

I am always deeply disappointed with how little civic and ethical values the average person has left. Whenever the common narrative finds a way to blame something or someone, the collective dehumanizes the target in a way that's quite terrifying, actually. People love to parrot about how "dictators are bad", "hitler was bad", etc, but when they find themselves in trivial situations where they have to show what they'r…

This is in reaction to a much greater moral outrage: thousands of dead Ukrainian civilians because of an unprovoked Russian invasion. One can either 1) sanction Russia (which impacts all Russians) 2) partially sanction (which is unavoidably subjective and abusable) or 3) not sanction Russia. This is a case of 1, based on the source link, "Norway announce that no Russian players will be able to play in the 2022 editio…

> This is in reaction to a much greater moral outrage: thousands of dead Ukrainian civilians because of an unprovoked Russian invasion.

No, this is racism and intolerance under a thin guise of outrage. We are talking about targeting individuals who bear zero responsibility for what people claim they are outraged about. The sole reason these individuals are targeted is because of their nationality. This is cancel culture at its worse - we don't even care about what people think or say anymore, and hurt them for something they can't change anything about.

What next? Should we make the Russians immigrants in our countries live in fear of reprisals? Should our children bully theirs in schools? How far can we take it before the outrage excuse wears out?

Outrage over the Russian invasion of Ukraine is warranted. I feel the same. It is good to see an international reaction to it, and I sincerely hope that this will pressure Putin to stop. The virtue signalling and posturing we have seen this week on social medias is not justice, however. It's a disgusting act of violence by people who feel they can get away with it. Is that violence comparable to what the Ukrainians live through at the moment? Of course not! But that doesn't make it excusable.

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#196

Post by throwaway5752 »

moralestapia wrote: post #184
throwaway5752 wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is in reaction to a much greater moral outrage: thousands of dead Ukrainian civilians because of an unprovoked Russian invasion. One can either 1) sanction Russia (which impacts all Russians) 2) partially sanction (which is unavoidably subjective and abusable) or 3) not sanction Russia. This is a case of 1, based on the source link, "Norway announce that no Russian players will be able to play in the 2022 editio…

If a Russian in America gets hurt and goes to a hospital, should it be denied medical attention? Where do you draw the line, actually? If I'm not Russian but my parents are, should I be sanctioned as well? Again, where do you draw the line? If you happened to be at Russia, would you be okay if everyone denied their services to you? If your country got involved into a conflict, and you don't even live there anymore, a…

You seem to be confused about the moral weight of being temporarily banned in gaming and sports tournaments to unprovoked invasion and warfare. They aren't equivalent. Your questions are just absurd slippery slope fallacies that I won't give the dignity of answering, and you should be a little embarrassed about using that technique in a good faith discussion.

Which article in the UN link that you sent would categorize participation in a chess tournament as a human right?

Where is your concern about Ukrainian human rights? If you are so passionate about Grischuk's human rights to participate in this competition, then you must be incensed the magnitude of the violation of individual rights being violated in Ukraine. Do you condemn the Russian invasion?

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#197

Post by jedimind »

ars wrote: post #174
bjourne wrote: post #95

But Saudi Arabia can bomb Yemen for years and Israel Palestine for decades without repercussions? I'm all for sanctions against Russia but the hypocrisy here is so thick you couldn't cut it with a knife.

Are you obsessed with Israel or something? This isn't the first time I've seen your comments about Israel, and your submission history is just full of this topic. Israel isn't "bombing Palestinies for decades". They're fighting back when Palestinians attack them (why did you gloss over Palestinians bombing Israel?), then there's quiet for a while, and then more fighting. The Israeli/Palestinian relationship is very c…

1) Accusation of obsession with Israel - check 2) Classic both siding with a cute "we're just defending" and leaving out the constant colonisation and ethnic cleansing campaigns & apartheid[0] - check 3) "it's complicated" - check (it's not remotely complicated, plain old settler colonialism)

The 1990s called, they want their hasbara back.

[0] https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/02/israels-apart...

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#198

Post by throwaway5752 »

thway0987 wrote: post #195
throwaway5752 wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is in reaction to a much greater moral outrage: thousands of dead Ukrainian civilians because of an unprovoked Russian invasion. One can either 1) sanction Russia (which impacts all Russians) 2) partially sanction (which is unavoidably subjective and abusable) or 3) not sanction Russia. This is a case of 1, based on the source link, "Norway announce that no Russian players will be able to play in the 2022 editio…

> This is in reaction to a much greater moral outrage: thousands of dead Ukrainian civilians because of an unprovoked Russian invasion. No, this is racism and intolerance under a thin guise of outrage. We are talking about targeting individuals who bear zero responsibility for what people claim they are outraged about. The sole reason these individuals are targeted is because of their nationality. This is cancel cult…

Like I said - you can ban none, some, or all Russian participants. That is just simple logic. If you ban some participants, you harm the integrity of the competition by subjective criteria. If you ban none, you are failing to impose a cost for Russian war crimes. It's an awful situation for everyone involved and the best situation would be for an immediate cessation of hostilities and military withdrawal so the ban can be lifted. After all, this is simply chess and nobody is dying. On the other hand, thousands of civilians are dead, families are divided, and there is real hardship.

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#199

Post by [deleted] »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #188
throwaway5752 wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not a case of punishing individuals. From one of the source links from the linked article: "Norway announce that no Russian players will be able to play in the 2022 edition of the event"

Individuals are clearly punished as well. This is like saying civilians killed by a bomb weren't harmed because the intent was to harm the state. By your logic, Ukrainian individuals aren't being harmed because Russia is invading a country, not the individuals.

[deleted]

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#200

Post by karencarits »

Some additional info: All those being excluded have received the message with understanding, according to Norway Chess. They will not take into concideration whether the participants have voiced criticism of the war or not, as Norway Chess cannot judge whether any individual is "sufficiently against" the war nor put anyone in a situation where they feel they have to take stance in the conflict (due to the participants' own safety)

Source: https://www.tv2.no/a/14615113/

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