Google mandates workers back to Silicon Valley, other offices from April 4 • Hacker News Board

Re: Google mandates workers back to Silicon Valley, other offices from April 4

#971

Post by craigie » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 6:21 PM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #345

bluefirebrand wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But as a counter-point, seeing a whole bunch of people who were never remote before, how little work they are actually doing, it is no surprise to me that a lot of employers are going to start forcing - to the extent possible - employees back into the office My suspicion is those people probably don't do anything while at the office either but they are good at making themselves very visible and appearing to be prod…

Back when I worked in an office, everyone knew who the slackers were.

Why didn't the managers fire them?

Re: Google mandates workers back to Silicon Valley, other offices from April 4

#972

Post by NickGott » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 6:36 PM UTC

nextlevelwizard wrote: post #853

com2kid wrote: post #673

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Some people love the lack of commute and less semi-forced hanging out, some people hate onboarding on a new company as a remote person and so on and so on. My team has been able to hire people from all across the country, gaining access to talent that we normally would not have been able to reach. Because my entire company has gone fully remote, if someone on the team has to take a trip overseas, they can choose to…

As a opposite view: Some team members output has severely dropped. I've seen people playing video games during work hours for example. Also work and free time has mixed to a point where people just randomly take hour or two to go skiing or for a walk and routinely just quit at the normal time. Commuting is different in different places. For me it is 15 minute drive to the office from a neighboring smaller city where…

>Some team members output has severely dropped. I've seen people playing video games during work hours for example. Also work and free time has mixed to a point where people just randomly take hour or two to go skiing or for a walk and routinely just quit at the normal time.

Dear god, people enjoying their life. This is the worst. Clearly society can't function unless everyone is miserable.

Have you ever considered that maybe the entire 8 hour work day is bullshit? That it is entirely possible for people to contribute productively within different time-frames?

>I'd argue my Quality of Life has gotten significantly worse especially since they closed gyms. Yes, they are now open, but there is also like a meter of snow outside so I probably won't get to the gym until spring actually starts.

What does this have to do with working from home? What could remote work possibly have to do with your inability to stick to a gym routine?

>I'm sure we will lose some people since they want to be 100% remote and that's fine.

You won't "lose some people". Unless your company has the pay and clout that Google has, your company will be decimated by a wave of people quitting.

Re: Google mandates workers back to Silicon Valley, other offices from April 4

#973

Post by TheKarateKid » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 6:44 PM UTC

nextlevelwizard wrote: post #853

com2kid wrote: post #673

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Some people love the lack of commute and less semi-forced hanging out, some people hate onboarding on a new company as a remote person and so on and so on. My team has been able to hire people from all across the country, gaining access to talent that we normally would not have been able to reach. Because my entire company has gone fully remote, if someone on the team has to take a trip overseas, they can choose to…

As a opposite view: Some team members output has severely dropped. I've seen people playing video games during work hours for example. Also work and free time has mixed to a point where people just randomly take hour or two to go skiing or for a walk and routinely just quit at the normal time. Commuting is different in different places. For me it is 15 minute drive to the office from a neighboring smaller city where…

> Some team members output has severely dropped. I've seen people playing video games during work hours for example. Also work and free time has mixed to a point where people just randomly take hour or two to go skiing or for a walk and routinely just quit at the normal time.

We as humans are not designed to be productive selves 5 days in a row, for 8 hours a day. If I'm not feeling well or having a bad day, I might finish working an hour or two early but make up for it by working overtime another day that week. It doesn't matter that I cut that day short - I wasn't going to be very productive if I wasn't feeling well anyway.

The 9-5, 8 hour work day was designed for PHYSICAL labor during the industrial revolution where output was directly correlated to time. This is not the case anymore. If someone can meet/exceed their responsibilities in 5 hours, why do they need to spend 8 hours just because slower workers need that time? This just punishes efficient workers.

Re: Google mandates workers back to Silicon Valley, other offices from April 4

#974

Post by thebean11 » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 6:55 PM UTC

dsl wrote: post #243

thebean11 wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't matter how many engineers there are as long as the teams are colocated. Yes you will need to have zoom meetings with other teams but interaction within the team can be almost fully in person.

Sure, as long as $impossible is true, it works well. You can have a front end Javascript team all stuck in Portland, but that falls apart for any advanced skill set. Try convincing the worlds 20 leading experts in X to live in one city.

I've never been on a team of 20 leading experts in any field, sounds interesting..

Re: Google mandates workers back to Silicon Valley, other offices from April 4

#975

Post by com2kid » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 7:35 PM UTC

nextlevelwizard wrote: post #855

headmelted wrote: post #788

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To extend this, more useable time with family. For many people with younger children (and therefore early evening bedtimes), having or not having a commute is not a difference of an hour or two of your day - it's the difference between spending time with your family during the week versus not at all. I've heard this from many friends (and some family) across different industries - hardly any have wanted to stick thei…

As a counterpoint people with young children seem to spend at least some time each week during work hours taking care of their kids while their partner (whose on maternity leave) is doing something else. Also the constant background noise of kids crying or some kids show playing it pretty annoying.

> As a counterpoint people with young children seem to spend at least some time each week during work hours taking care of their kids while their partner (whose on maternity leave) is doing something else.

That is me, and I account for time off during day to play with my 10 month son by spending an extra hour after dinner finishing up work.

WfH gives me the flexibility to do that. WfH also means I don't have to take an entire day off if my son has a mid-day doctors appointment. Everyone wins.

> Also the constant background noise of kids crying or some kids show playing it pretty annoying.

Your company should spend the few extra $$ on good headsets for everyone.

Re: Google mandates workers back to Silicon Valley, other offices from April 4

#976

Post by com2kid » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 7:43 PM UTC

ihateolives wrote: post #792

com2kid wrote: post #673

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Some people love the lack of commute and less semi-forced hanging out, some people hate onboarding on a new company as a remote person and so on and so on. My team has been able to hire people from all across the country, gaining access to talent that we normally would not have been able to reach. Because my entire company has gone fully remote, if someone on the team has to take a trip overseas, they can choose to…

> My team has been able to hire people from all across the country, gaining access to talent that we normally would not have been able to reach. It works when the team is used to and knows how to connect with each other online and to keep those connections going through the day/week. I'm an (highly functioning) introvert and even I hate video onboarding. I've done it twice during pandemic and it sucks big time if the…

> It works when the team is used to and knows how to connect with each other online and to keep those connections going through the day/week.

My company always had offices spread around the country that worked close with one another, so going full remote was a change, but honestly not a huge change.

We have regular coffee/tea breaks every afternoon, no work talk allowed. A variety of online social events helps round things out.

Is it the same as working in an office together? Of course not. But while I have worked on some great teams that gelled really well, IMHO the majority of work teams don't have deep bonds.

What WfH really did kill was the ability to create informal connections between teams, the types of connections that help Get Things Done faster than usual. I feel that is the one true, huge, drawback of WfH.

Re: Google mandates workers back to Silicon Valley, other offices from April 4

#977

Post by lmeyerov » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 8:03 PM UTC

whiplash451 wrote: post #959

lmeyerov wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Managers like it bc they don't do deep work, and do benefit from happenstance + zoom relief. A CEO manages managers, so even more extreme. (And I assume even more so in sales/marketing heavy orgs where folks aren't digital natives.) We are tiny, and while actively hiring, no intention of getting an office again. Too much to do to waste on management, commute, etc.

I think we agree. There are so many company topologies/contexts/situations that a one-size-fits-all answer does not exist. That was really the point of my post. Some companies are happy to switch to 3-days in the office, and we should respect them as much as the ones that go full remote.

I like how an MIT CS professor put it to me once: He stays home to work, and goes to work to socialize.

Most people are not digitally native, and as in my original comment, management layers are especially social. So I'd expect deep work orgs to be more remote-friendly: small technical startups like ours are happy fully remote, and it's an advantage. In contrast, most sales/marketing/large orgs are less remote-friendly: 1+ days in office, bad promotion paths for fully remote, ... . Not inherent and always exceptions, but just about what's typical, natural, & easy.

Re: Google mandates workers back to Silicon Valley, other offices from April 4

#978

Post by croutonwagon » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 8:09 PM UTC

cebert wrote: post #360

2spicy4me wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking for myself, I need the structure and am currently getting very little done. A lot of us aren’t trying to scam the remote work system, we’re just hanging on by our fingernails until the office opens back up.

How does going back to the office help with that?

I cannot speak for OP but as a working manager, COVID was hard to really keep forward progress.

I had people that were rockstars in the office that just didnt do work at home.

Maybe its the removal of distractions (no TV, I may walk by, etc). But even for things that were totally fine remote (ie: Ticket Queues) i noticed very quickly if my status showed "in" they were on it. If my status for any reason showed away, tickets would straight up get ignored. Mentioning this would enact change for a day or two, but ultimately it would return back to status quo. What did happen is that those that were self motivated were quicker/starting to burn out. I had to get with them and intervene and encourage them to take time off, encourage them to let the queue go for their teammates to pick it up etc.

I had other colleagues asking my ops teams to check in on their direct reports and I often had to have meetings telling them thats not a IT/Tech issue and they need to deal with it, just like I am having to..

Frankly i had a mouse shaker on a side box not for MY Managers, but for my direct reports...

As we transitioned back to the office a lot of these issues mostly disappeared. EXCEPT for those with weak/timid managers. A lot of those guys are still slacking, but they were slacking before and the manager just didnt want to handle it.

But my teams....most of them are mostly back to normal. We all have burnout to deal with, myself included and I have had to manage to balance pushing them and encouraging them to do things that dont cause burnout, front structuring your workday, to taking mental health days etc. But ultimately the return to the office was a relief for me, and a lot of that just went away.

I personally think its the removal of distractions coupled with the "threat" of someone walking up that doesnt exist at home. And its worth saying, I'm not one of those old school butts in chairs kinda guy. In fact im pretty laid back, and have been told so by peers and reports alike, and in many cases I have been asked how I am able to be so laid back and still have productivity like I do, but covid made it harder.

And thats beyond the fact that I have colleagues in other divisions that i KNOW are using their WFH days to be out fishing, playing golf, hiking whatever. Personally for me thats an ethics issue, i take days off for that. But I work in a small sector, im not going to tattle tail on someone i may cross paths with down the line, karma will catch them anyhow.

Re: Google mandates workers back to Silicon Valley, other offices from April 4

#979

Post by nextlevelwizard » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 8:18 PM UTC

NickGott wrote: post #972

nextlevelwizard wrote: post #853

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a opposite view: Some team members output has severely dropped. I've seen people playing video games during work hours for example. Also work and free time has mixed to a point where people just randomly take hour or two to go skiing or for a walk and routinely just quit at the normal time. Commuting is different in different places. For me it is 15 minute drive to the office from a neighboring smaller city where…

>Some team members output has severely dropped. I've seen people playing video games during work hours for example. Also work and free time has mixed to a point where people just randomly take hour or two to go skiing or for a walk and routinely just quit at the normal time. Dear god, people enjoying their life. This is the worst. Clearly society can't function unless everyone is miserable. Have you ever considered t…

>Have you ever considered that maybe the entire 8 hour work day is bullshit? That it is entirely possible for people to contribute productively within different time-frames?

Have you considered some reading comprehension? Read the first sentence you quoted again and stop pushing your own opinion and gospel.

>What does this have to do with working from home? What could remote work possibly have to do with your inability to stick to a gym routine?

This too is super disingenious line of questioning. How aobut not being able to go to anywhere else? Feels pretty weird just to drive to the gym and back.

>You won't "lose some people". Unless your company has the pay and clout that Google has, your company will be decimated by a wave of people quitting.

ROFL

Re: Google mandates workers back to Silicon Valley, other offices from April 4

#980

Post by nextlevelwizard » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 8:20 PM UTC

ihateolives wrote: post #869

nextlevelwizard wrote: post #853

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a opposite view: Some team members output has severely dropped. I've seen people playing video games during work hours for example. Also work and free time has mixed to a point where people just randomly take hour or two to go skiing or for a walk and routinely just quit at the normal time. Commuting is different in different places. For me it is 15 minute drive to the office from a neighboring smaller city where…

> Some team members output has severely dropped. I've seen people playing video games during work hours for example. Also work and free time has mixed to a point where people just randomly take hour or two to go skiing or for a walk and routinely just quit at the normal time. People spending time on other things could be a sign that they either don't want to can't do full 8h anyway. I can't, just can't, my mind does…

In my company literally nothing prevents from them negotiating less hours, but people don't want to take the pay cut they just want to play Elden Ring or Warhammer 3 or whatever is hottest game that week. It is especially bad with the guys who have young kids because they have no free time so they "sneak in" some game time during the work day.