Google mandates workers back to Silicon Valley, other offices from April 4 • Hacker News Board

Re: Google mandates workers back to Silicon Valley, other offices from April 4

#951

Post by kodisha » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 4:39 PM UTC

com2kid wrote: post #673

librish wrote: post #84

I think anyone who's claiming that remote work has been "proven" to be better or worse is wrong. There are some studies but they use estimations and proxies, carrying the same flaws as doing performance reviews based on lines of code. We've proven that the big tech companies can go fully remote and not completely crash and burn, that's about it. Some people love the lack of commute and less semi-forced hanging out, s…

> Some people love the lack of commute and less semi-forced hanging out, some people hate onboarding on a new company as a remote person and so on and so on. My team has been able to hire people from all across the country, gaining access to talent that we normally would not have been able to reach. Because my entire company has gone fully remote, if someone on the team has to take a trip overseas, they can choose to…

The only thing that is (kinda) better IRL is impromptu debug sessions, or that initial couple of days when you are bootstrapping a new project, so it's nice to sit with person(s) who are working on this.

Even those are easily matched in quality with zoom/slack and draw on screen features.

Re: Google mandates workers back to Silicon Valley, other offices from April 4

#952

Post by craigie » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 4:47 PM UTC

Havelock wrote: post #923

librish wrote: post #84

I think anyone who's claiming that remote work has been "proven" to be better or worse is wrong. There are some studies but they use estimations and proxies, carrying the same flaws as doing performance reviews based on lines of code. We've proven that the big tech companies can go fully remote and not completely crash and burn, that's about it. Some people love the lack of commute and less semi-forced hanging out, s…

In my experience productivity is up and people get their work done. What I do see is a lot of extrovert getting depressed because they no longer have access to the smorgasbord of interactions at the office. Certain managers also seem worried by this move to remote, since it has become harder for them to "play the game" of office politics. My own opinion is let the people decide what to do. Once a week, everyday, once…

>, since it has become harder for them to "play the game" of office politics

I suspect this is the real reason for a push to return to the office.

Re: Google mandates workers back to Silicon Valley, other offices from April 4

#953

Post by johnnyanmac » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 4:47 PM UTC

nextlevelwizard wrote: post #853

com2kid wrote: post #673

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Some people love the lack of commute and less semi-forced hanging out, some people hate onboarding on a new company as a remote person and so on and so on. My team has been able to hire people from all across the country, gaining access to talent that we normally would not have been able to reach. Because my entire company has gone fully remote, if someone on the team has to take a trip overseas, they can choose to…

As a opposite view: Some team members output has severely dropped. I've seen people playing video games during work hours for example. Also work and free time has mixed to a point where people just randomly take hour or two to go skiing or for a walk and routinely just quit at the normal time. Commuting is different in different places. For me it is 15 minute drive to the office from a neighboring smaller city where…

> I've seen people playing video games during work hours for example. Also work and free time has mixed to a point where people just randomly take hour or two to go skiing or for a walk and routinely just quit at the normal time.

Yeah, kinda guilty of that. Zero gym and during the winter hours where end of work = end of sun, I've had times where I take a walk. Usually more than 1 unproductive day leads to me just using a bit of the moonlight oil to catch up. Nothing super drastic, but e.g. last month there was a day where I just had a burst of productivity to ride for some 3-4 hours at 18:00.

Game wise, I'm never going full "well time to boot up the PS5", but I have been playing a lot more mobile games on the side while stuff compiles.

>I personally can't wait for life to go back to normal. I'm sure we will lose some people since they want to be 100% remote and that's fine

Well, tech is an even hotter market than a pre-pandemic so in my industry I'm not too worried about anyone pursuing full remote. It can go vice versa for those companies that go full remote and for people who want that separation of life.

I still want some office to go into, but I do hope that this pandemic changes some attitudes about the times where I made need to take a "sick but still productive" day at home, or when I travel and need a week to just report in remotely. Flexibility is nice in a pinch and in previous companies that was a pain.

Re: Google mandates workers back to Silicon Valley, other offices from April 4

#954

Post by avs733 » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 5:00 PM UTC

librish wrote: post #84

I think anyone who's claiming that remote work has been "proven" to be better or worse is wrong. There are some studies but they use estimations and proxies, carrying the same flaws as doing performance reviews based on lines of code. We've proven that the big tech companies can go fully remote and not completely crash and burn, that's about it. Some people love the lack of commute and less semi-forced hanging out, s…

as a board member or shareholder I think I would ask the inverse question.

Okay, we have two years of data. PROVE to me that you need to spend $Xm per year on office space for this company to work. Prove to me that you have to pay top of market SV salaries

I think the time is now to reframe what needs to be proven...its a business not a social experiment. Coming in costs more money, prove to me its money worth spending on a case by case basis. If you don't run a handson manufacturing line what evidence supports paying for a building where everyone has a space? We've already ditched offices for cubicles and cubicles for open plan offices just to save space (i.e., cost). At this point the burden of proof isn't on 'work from home is okay' just from a financial perspective.

Re: Google mandates workers back to Silicon Valley, other offices from April 4

#955

Post by hardolaf » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 5:12 PM UTC

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #899

hbn wrote: post #896

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I certainly like being able to roll out of bed and put on a coffee 10 minutes before starting work, but if I'm being honest with myself, the idea of receiving all my regular human interaction through a badly made Electron app from Microsoft for the rest of my life is just not a good idea in the long run. And maybe I'm just crazy but it seems like software even from the big companies has gotten worse through the pande…

> the idea of receiving all my regular human interaction through a badly made Electron app from Microsoft for the rest of my life is just not a good idea in the long run. I find the idea that all your regular human interaction comes from people you work with infinitely more dreadful.

People spend over 1/3 of their day working. It's the only regular social interaction a lot of people get outside of their household. They get a lot more irregular social interaction from other things, but nothing quite as regular.

Re: Google mandates workers back to Silicon Valley, other offices from April 4

#956

Post by johnnyanmac » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 5:13 PM UTC

Frost1x wrote: post #857

underdeserver wrote: post #758

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's great, but I don't want to work with you, because something you're working on or something you're responsible for is blocking me and I have no way of making progress.

Unless it's effecting your performance review or whatever, who cares, honestly? The obsession with efficiency and Taylorism is what's wrong with the current state of affairs in business. Not saying people shouldn't want to be productive just that understanding delays and simply pyschologically dealing with them would go a long way in modern culture. Not everything needs to happen 5 minutes ago, is late, or is so crit…

>Unless it's effecting your performance review or whatever, who cares, honestly? The obsession with efficiency and Taylorism is what's wrong with the current state of affairs in business.

being blocked on a task due to missing knowledge isn't really "efficient". Especially when someone can point you to the right place in the span of a single slack message line instead of spending hours wandering through legacy code and still missing the full scope of the change I want to make.

Sure, if it's a one-off bug fix task someone internal discovered, it can wait a day. But these kinds of issues when highlihgted are never because "it happened once" One is coincidence, twice is happenstance. thrice is probably a habit and you learn that certain people aren't a reliable resource in terms of, well, co-working.

Re: Google mandates workers back to Silicon Valley, other offices from April 4

#957

Post by ThalesX » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 5:14 PM UTC

raygelogic wrote: post #867

I think remote work makes more sense the more stable the development pathway is. the more cross function work, the more uncertainty, and maybe the higher the required velocity, the more important it seems to be able to have impromptu discussions. I find I spend a few hours a week just catching up on things I'm missing in the office while working remotely. and when I do go in, I'll learn something that causes a total…

I kinda like it how we do where I am working now, and we're doing highly exploratory work. We have an ongoing call throughout the day where people kinda join up, and a lot of impromptuu discussion is done in this way. It's not mandatory, but most of us just chill there, mute and webcam on or off, depending on the mood, and kinda work.

It's super natural to just ping someone in chat and if it's the case, you can share the screen and if anyone else is interested they're already there and can just throw an eye. If the discussion is annoying you, you can just mute and focus, but most of the times if it's a longer discussion, we make a split conversation and rejoin main after we do the back and forth.

Really natural way of doing things and I can work from anywhere with people from anywhere, as long as we can get some overlap with the daily calendar group chat, which is very easy to do given its immovable nature.

Re: Google mandates workers back to Silicon Valley, other offices from April 4

#958

Post by johnnyanmac » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 5:19 PM UTC

IshKebab wrote: post #757

bjarneh wrote: post #715

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I want to be able to quickly resolve any issues in person, not over voice call or slack.. Isn't this the main problem? I hate everyone who comes barging in and wants to "resolve issues" quickly. Not saying I love remote work, but I cannot stand working a place where people are "allowed" to disturb me. I don't even log into Slack/Teams/Skype or any of that nonsense; I don't even want to be disturbed in my virtual wo…

If you're in a position of some power that's maybe what you'd prefer. I'm on the bottom rung and being able to walk up to someone's desk so they can't ignore me would be extremely helpful. Been WFH for a while and it is not uncommon for people to ignore requests, never reply to messages etc. Yes that is a problem with my current team, but I can't really do anything about it. Working from an office would mostly sidest…

>I feel like most people are in agreement - commuting really sucks but working in an office is generally better. I suspect if teleporters existed barely anyone would WFH.

depends on office space and potential home accommodations. Like, if you have a dedicated 8m^2 office room in your house, it still may not be worth teleporting into an open space office. But if everyone can get a small private room to some more open floor structure for collaboration, it sounds like the perfect solution.

Re: Google mandates workers back to Silicon Valley, other offices from April 4

#959

Post by whiplash451 » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 5:21 PM UTC

lmeyerov wrote: post #204

whiplash451 wrote: post #69

Duolingo is also back to 3 days a week in the office, and their CEO seems happy about it.

Managers like it bc they don't do deep work, and do benefit from happenstance + zoom relief. A CEO manages managers, so even more extreme. (And I assume even more so in sales/marketing heavy orgs where folks aren't digital natives.) We are tiny, and while actively hiring, no intention of getting an office again. Too much to do to waste on management, commute, etc.

I think we agree. There are so many company topologies/contexts/situations that a one-size-fits-all answer does not exist.

That was really the point of my post. Some companies are happy to switch to 3-days in the office, and we should respect them as much as the ones that go full remote.

Re: Google mandates workers back to Silicon Valley, other offices from April 4

#960

Post by johnnyanmac » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 5:22 PM UTC

dt3ft wrote: post #696

nannal wrote: post #686

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What I will counter is that remote is almost certainly better for the environment and social mobility Neither of which have an appreciable business use in the near to mid term & are therefore totally irrelevant to an employer.

To the contrary, I prefer to work for employers who are kind to the environment and I'm quite sure my entire generation feels the same. In fact, I long for the day when the last business harmful to the environment shuts its doors.

> I'm quite sure my entire generation feels the same.

they may agree, but may not have the fortune of choice. Not everyone is being well compensated in a cushy office space. Google people certainly are, but that's a small slice of an industry that's a slice of an entire society.