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Not everyone should meditate

joshcsimmons.com

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Re: Not everyone should meditate

#251

Post by agent008t »

ggpsv wrote: post #57
skilled wrote: post #20

This is a great perspective. I know what the author means with it, too. I spent 5 years in daily meditation practice (twice a day for 20 minutes) and it completely altered my state of mind. I was a naturally introverted person when I started, though I believe that meditation really stepped it up a notch for me. The strange thing about meditation and the idea of living in the present is that it completely transcends y…

Thanks for sharing. I'm curious, did you consider at any point untangling those feelings with a psychotherapist? Your experience resonates with me, but I came to a different conclusion. Meditation did open the doors to a more conscious awareness. That sounds grandiose but it isn't. It means having a practice of observing thoughts and emotions as they arise. As you describe, this can lead to more clarity into the orde…

This is how I feel as well. I think combining meditation with good psychotherapy is almost a must. Meditation allows things from subconscious to rise to the conscious, and psychotherapy allows you to work through them and resolve them.

I would guess that in the past, meditation teachers fulfilled the psychotherapist role. But an actual qualified therapist would be much better - especially now that meditation is a relatively common aspect of psychotherapy.

In fact, it seems like there is a lot of similarity generally between the role that priests of all kinds were supposed to perform in a community, and therapists. I wonder if it would be a good idea for humanity to essentially build a secular replacement to religion like that.

Re: Not everyone should meditate

#253

Post by sooheon »

DennisP wrote: post #127
cromd wrote: post #107

For me, meditation started a fundamental shift in how I think about free will, and oddly nobody I've mentioned it to in real life has felt this. I used to feel very in-control of my own mind, but after intentionally sitting and monitoring for thoughts, labeling those thoughts, etc, I became sensitive to how thoughts can really come out of nowhere. You can't predict what you will think next. That strikes a little deep…

The thoughts do come up out of nowhere, unpredictably. But with practice, I can choose whether to inhabit them, or simply note them with quiet amusement and let them pass by. I can also pick something to concentrate on, and stay mostly focused on that, while those extra little thoughts just flutter in the background. This all seems to me like an enhancement of free will. (Meditating almost daily.)

> with practice, I can choose whether to inhabit them, or simply note them with quiet amusement and let them pass by. I can also pick something to concentrate on, and stay mostly focused on that, while those extra little thoughts just flutter in the background.

The next level is when you realize that these choices of how to respond, too, arise and resolve themselves spontaneously.

Re: Not everyone should meditate

#254

Post by sooheon »

mbg721 wrote: post #138
cromd wrote: post #107

For me, meditation started a fundamental shift in how I think about free will, and oddly nobody I've mentioned it to in real life has felt this. I used to feel very in-control of my own mind, but after intentionally sitting and monitoring for thoughts, labeling those thoughts, etc, I became sensitive to how thoughts can really come out of nowhere. You can't predict what you will think next. That strikes a little deep…

Imo, recognizing that there are some uncontrollable thoughts is part of the general trend of acknowledging the close connection of mental health to physical health. The existence of "lizard" characteristics to the brain doesn't invalidate free will, but they're so rarely pointed out that it's useful to notice them.

There is no distinction between "lizard" and non-lizard thoughts. Every that that arises in your brain originates with processes far below the level of consciousness, you don't have control over the upstream causes that are in motion long before you are aware of any conscious thought.

Re: Not everyone should meditate

#255

Post by sooheon »

julienb_sea wrote: post #128
cromd wrote: post #107

For me, meditation started a fundamental shift in how I think about free will, and oddly nobody I've mentioned it to in real life has felt this. I used to feel very in-control of my own mind, but after intentionally sitting and monitoring for thoughts, labeling those thoughts, etc, I became sensitive to how thoughts can really come out of nowhere. You can't predict what you will think next. That strikes a little deep…

We don't exhibit complete control over our thoughts, that is provably impossible and anecdotally obvious when reflecting on errant thoughts we have experienced. Free will is about behavior, not thoughts. Our free will is demonstrated by our ability to consciously choose whether and how to act when presented with thoughts and emotions.

> Our free will is demonstrated by our ability to consciously choose whether and how to act when presented with thoughts and emotions.

This is nonsensical, because choice is a thought before it is an action, and we accept that we do not control the comings and goings of our own thoughts.

Re: Not everyone should meditate

#256

Post by jordwest »

pasiaj wrote: post #240
argentinian wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I was convinced that the people who were unlucky in this life were actually suffering for eternity and practically lost it. Do you have some idea now about why that conviction seemed believable to you at that moment?

I had a similar experience that I might be able to explain logically. I was thinking about death, the exact moment of death, and thought about the last sensation felt by a dying person. I had a thought that the last affect you experience subjectively never goes away. That if you feel horrible at the moment of your death, subjectively that feeling never goes away. That idea and feeling shook me and made me think of he…

I had a similar feeling of terror as a kid, thinking about death and eternity one night in bed and suddenly experiencing terror. The best way I could describe it was this vast eternal concept of nothingness forever that scared me with the immensity of infinity. In a way I’m kinda grateful for that experience now as it’s led me down a path of learning about meditation and eventually a lot of the things described in this thread.

Here’s something you might like to ponder as an alternative perspective (though I can imagine there’s fear of going back there).

What would be the implication if the passage of time is only an illusion created by memory? What if every moment in our lives is experienced simultaneously, but it only appears to move forwards because we experience each of those moments individually - each containing some memory of moments before. After all it’s not possible to experience any other moment than this one, right now, so we don’t have any subjective evidence that we (as awareness) even experience anything other than a single moment.

In other words, even if awareness persists outside death, when memory dies with the brain how can there be any perception of time - what would it even be that experiences eternity?

Re: Not everyone should meditate

#257

Post by rahoulb »

argentinian wrote: post #158
veidr wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's just something that happens once you learn to see the thoughts themselves arising, rather than feeling like you are thinking them. This occurs automatically, once you start meditating, typically within just a couple weeks even for those people (like me) who "don't get it" at first. Source: started meditating a few months ago.

If choices and thoughts just happen, then what kind of agency does the self have?

The word "agency" is important there ...

There have been experiments on split brain patients (where there Corpus Callosum has been severed, so their two hemispheres no longer communicate), that seem to imply that the self is more of a way of monitoring and understanding what's going on and tying it all together.

For example, asking the subject, whispered in one ear, so only one hemisphere receives the request - "can you get me a can of Coke from the vending machine please, I'm really thirsty". Then when the subject returns, asking the other ear (and hence the other hemisphere) "why did you get that can?" - to which the subject replied "I thought I would need a drink on my way home" - in effect filling in an explanation for the "black box" behaviour their body was expressing.

Re: Not everyone should meditate

#258

Post by sooheon »

Scarblac wrote: post #193
argentinian wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If choices and thoughts just happen, then what kind of agency does the self have?

I don't think they "just happen", but they originate in ways that aren't accessible to consciousness. So to consciousness they suddenly appear, but it was still my brain that formed them, so me.

> to consciousness they suddenly appear, but it was still my brain that formed them, so me.

Interesting philosophical position! I've rarely seen that position be held in earnest, because the obvious consequence is that you should be held fully responsible for anything possibly criminal you do while sleepwalking, as it was still on your brain's orders, regardless of your state of consciousness.

Re: Not everyone should meditate

#259

Post by hutzlibu »

cardanome wrote: post #246
argentinian wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can feel like that when you resist the painful memory or emotion. But if you stay with it, accepting it, neither rejecting nor holding it, you may notice that it dissolves. It's like the effect of exposure in behavioral therapy, phobias are treated with sustained exposure to the feared stimulus.

The process is still painful. Yeah, I know how to accept them and don't resist but it's not like I will be able to sort out my issues in a 20min session. The best I can hope is to get to the deeper issues which will be even more painful. I personally found the combination of regular physical exercise plus reading physical books (training my concentration, helping me relaxing) the best way to stay productive. If I med…

"If I meditate then after physical exercise when my body is full of happiness hormones giving me a nice cool-down. "

Yup, that is a good combination. And if you do sports in nature, you might find good spots to calm down in between. Being next to moving water I found helpful, or atop on some mountain with the wind.

(but no smartphone to distract me)

Re: Not everyone should meditate

#260

Post by Karto »

This post reminds me of the book : Trauma Sensitive Mindfulness, by David A. Treleaven. It explains how incompetent meditation can awaken and reinforce trauma, while a competently handled meditation can be part of the toolbox to heal it.
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