Google mandates workers back to Silicon Valley, other offices from April 4 • Hacker News Board

Re: Google mandates workers back to Silicon Valley, other offices from April 4

#781

Post by avnigo » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 9:39 AM UTC

What I don't understand is that, at least on the surface, companies save money (utilities, rent, etc.) by having employees work from home.

So it seems to me that the only reason companies like Google would mandate the return to offices is because they see a greater cost in having employees work from home. Are they afraid of the cost of lost happenstance collaboration being so high and not trusting in technology (some of which Google built) to bridge that gap, or are they worried that their employees are slacking off?

Personally, slacking off when working from home would not be unimaginable, but more often than not, I may work longer hours from home as I won't have the commute burden or feeling that it's time to finally leave the office, so it's actually easier to get carried away. Admittedly that has other mental health implications, but not ones I would imagine most companies considering the cost of.

Re: Google mandates workers back to Silicon Valley, other offices from April 4

#782

Post by 88913527 » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 9:41 AM UTC

bipvanwinkle wrote: post #710

com2kid wrote: post #673

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Some people love the lack of commute and less semi-forced hanging out, some people hate onboarding on a new company as a remote person and so on and so on. My team has been able to hire people from all across the country, gaining access to talent that we normally would not have been able to reach. Because my entire company has gone fully remote, if someone on the team has to take a trip overseas, they can choose to…

Agreed. I don’t if it’s for everyone, but i love it. No commute, healthier food, access to a bed for a quick nap, and a nice office. 10/10 would do again.

As someone who recognizes what's best for me may not be best for others, I will comfortably acknowledge some companies should do full RTO while others remain hybrid. If you do a four-square of RTO-or-Hybrid/Remote vs Success-or-Unsuccessful you likely won't reach some magical, simplistic conclusion like "(co)locating results in a (more/less) success". The real world is more varied than that. Enough companies will employ either strategy for workers to have their pick. But we shouldn't take a moral or capitalist ground for suggesting one style is superior. As technologists, we have to be remain sensible enough to recognize the multivariate nature of success.

Re: Google mandates workers back to Silicon Valley, other offices from April 4

#783

Post by IMTDb » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 9:44 AM UTC

blitzar wrote: post #756

com2kid wrote: post #673

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Some people love the lack of commute and less semi-forced hanging out, some people hate onboarding on a new company as a remote person and so on and so on. My team has been able to hire people from all across the country, gaining access to talent that we normally would not have been able to reach. Because my entire company has gone fully remote, if someone on the team has to take a trip overseas, they can choose to…

All great for you ... but hey lets think of the little people like the shareholders of google... 257 billion in profit in 2021 (share price closed 2800), from 89 billion in 2019 (share price closed 1350). Hey look it works for them too, everyone is a winner!

What part of these profits comes from work actually done remotely during the pandemic ? What you are proving is that the Google model of hiring extremely talented devs, paying them handsomely, and asking them to spend days in their campus allowed them to create a company that takes in billion of profits even during a pandemic.

Which part of the Google offer significantly changed thanks to work done during the pandemic ? All these profits come from something that was built - in person - in pre pandemic work organisation, so we know that this was was successful. The only big thing that I can think of on Google side that was supposed to take off during the pandemic is Stadia. I own one, and it's an understatement to say that it did not deliver on its promises. It is not the first Google product that fails, and it is hard to say if the failure is due to remote work, but still something to consider.

Re: Google mandates workers back to Silicon Valley, other offices from April 4

#784

Post by ulzeraj » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 9:45 AM UTC

librish wrote: post #84

I think anyone who's claiming that remote work has been "proven" to be better or worse is wrong. There are some studies but they use estimations and proxies, carrying the same flaws as doing performance reviews based on lines of code. We've proven that the big tech companies can go fully remote and not completely crash and burn, that's about it. Some people love the lack of commute and less semi-forced hanging out, s…

> I want to be able to quickly resolve any issues in person, not over voice call or slack, and I think that an environment where someone can tap me on the shoulder when they need help leads to overall higher productivity, even if individual productivity suffers temporarily.

This comment right here made me angry and for reasons totally different from the discussion. Its about people who thinks they they are entitled to interrupt my workflow to solve their issues.

Re: Google mandates workers back to Silicon Valley, other offices from April 4

#785

Post by taurath » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 9:45 AM UTC

librish wrote: post #84

I think anyone who's claiming that remote work has been "proven" to be better or worse is wrong. There are some studies but they use estimations and proxies, carrying the same flaws as doing performance reviews based on lines of code. We've proven that the big tech companies can go fully remote and not completely crash and burn, that's about it. Some people love the lack of commute and less semi-forced hanging out, s…

If they’ve got Google amenities I can see it but have you seen the side by side desks in open spaces sharing floors with salespeople that reflects most programmers work environments? Some places won’t even provide an ergonomic setup, and they have to compete against a setup developed at home over 2 years that works out much much better.

Re: Google mandates workers back to Silicon Valley, other offices from April 4

#786

Post by fortylove » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 9:48 AM UTC

b0afc375b5 wrote: post #626

mrosett wrote: post #582

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100% agree on this. I've attended the weddings of multiple friends from my first job. I'm still in touch with 4-5 people from my second job. I haven't spoken to anyone from my team at Google since the day I left. I had good, cordial relationships with all of them, but it was also incredibly impersonal. I don't even recall learning anything about anyone's spouse, for instance.

Is it possible that in general we have more attachment with our colleagues in our earlier jobs than the later ones? I remember when I got my first job I was extremely social and would try to make friends with anyone. But now that I'm on my nth job I don't feel the need to socialize as much and would prefer to put in my work hours and move on with my life.

This resonates a lot with me.

Re: Google mandates workers back to Silicon Valley, other offices from April 4

#787

Post by linspace » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 9:50 AM UTC

librish wrote: post #84

I think anyone who's claiming that remote work has been "proven" to be better or worse is wrong. There are some studies but they use estimations and proxies, carrying the same flaws as doing performance reviews based on lines of code. We've proven that the big tech companies can go fully remote and not completely crash and burn, that's about it. Some people love the lack of commute and less semi-forced hanging out, s…

I agree on a lot of the things you said but I wonder if they are worth the cost, not just at an individual level but even as a society

Re: Google mandates workers back to Silicon Valley, other offices from April 4

#788

Post by headmelted » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 9:50 AM UTC

com2kid wrote: post #673

librish wrote: post #84

I think anyone who's claiming that remote work has been "proven" to be better or worse is wrong. There are some studies but they use estimations and proxies, carrying the same flaws as doing performance reviews based on lines of code. We've proven that the big tech companies can go fully remote and not completely crash and burn, that's about it. Some people love the lack of commute and less semi-forced hanging out, s…

> Some people love the lack of commute and less semi-forced hanging out, some people hate onboarding on a new company as a remote person and so on and so on. My team has been able to hire people from all across the country, gaining access to talent that we normally would not have been able to reach. Because my entire company has gone fully remote, if someone on the team has to take a trip overseas, they can choose to…

To extend this, more useable time with family.

For many people with younger children (and therefore early evening bedtimes), having or not having a commute is not a difference of an hour or two of your day - it's the difference between spending time with your family during the week versus not at all. I've heard this from many friends (and some family) across different industries - hardly any have wanted to stick their heads above the parapet and single themselves out as being a problem.

I already empathised, but this whole thing has really thrown a light on what working parents (specifically those with primary care responsibilities like school pick-ups and drop-offs) in the workplace have been dealing with this whole entire time.

tldr; A great many people have had an increase of 150% of the time they care about the most by working from home - this proposal takes that away from them.

Re: Google mandates workers back to Silicon Valley, other offices from April 4

#789

Post by IMTDb » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 9:53 AM UTC

vladvasiliu wrote: post #724

deanCommie wrote: post #713

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I agree, but I am getting 1/8th of my waking hours back from commuting. What about all the people who already knew spending 2 hours commuting was a terrible use of our time before the pandemic, regardless of how much of a bigger house we could get? So we lived in dense cities, in walkable neighborhoods, where the office was a 15 minute walk away but so were restaurants, parks, grocery stores, and theaters? But part…

You can probably still go back to the office even if your colleagues work from home. And if not, there are probably coworking spaces, or similar. Why must there be a one-size-fits-all situation? Also, if WfH spreads, many of the people who made the same choice, getting a small apartment in a dense city for living only, will probably make a different choice now and move somewhere else. I know many people who did just…

Because as soon as one person in the team is remote, the whole team needs to organise around that. Think of a 5 person team where 1 is remote and the others aren't. Your daily standup ? can't do that quickly at your desk, you need to find a room and setup visio. Going on lunch and discussing about your project ? Too bad. Got an idea you ran by a colleague at the coffee machine ? Now you need to setup a call or get everything in writing for the 4th dude. A state of the project on a whiteboard in the office ? No, you need to use Jira.

The only option here is either having a member of the team always one step behind, or changing the entire organisation of the team to revolve around that guy. People who prefer "in-office" work would rather make the effort of commuting so that they do not have to deal with that. So they expect the other people in their team to do the same, otherwise there is little to no point.

Re: Google mandates workers back to Silicon Valley, other offices from April 4

#790

Post by krautsourced » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 9:54 AM UTC

librish wrote: post #84

I think anyone who's claiming that remote work has been "proven" to be better or worse is wrong. There are some studies but they use estimations and proxies, carrying the same flaws as doing performance reviews based on lines of code. We've proven that the big tech companies can go fully remote and not completely crash and burn, that's about it. Some people love the lack of commute and less semi-forced hanging out, s…

For me the mixed model works best, some days at the office, some at home.

I am infinitely more productive when it comes to coding working from home. The constant office interruptions made it impossible to concentrate for any length of time.

On the other hand, any in person meeting felt equally more productive than the zoom ones. Same goes for discussing issues, explaining them out loud to other people etc. without having to set a meeting.

So, for me, the _preparation_ for work is best done in an on site environment, the actual work I do better from home (where I actually also have the much better setup and equipment than at the office)