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Moving money internationally

bam.kalzumeus.com

141–150 of 230 posts

Re: Moving money internationally

#141
post #77

For those saying that crypto is useless, here is a great use case. Authoritarian governments are currently preventing individuals from moving their property across borders. Crypto fixes that.

But it does not - or, to the extent that it does, it only does as a yet-unclosed loophole. If crypto is not currency, it needs to be converted to currency before use and as such can trivially be blocked with KYC rules at conversion. If crypto desires to be a serious currency, it needs to greatly improve efficiency and stop being deflationary. (Funnily enough, Tesla accepts dogecoin but not USDT, so maybe I am wrong w…

> If crypto desires to be a serious currency, it needs to greatly improve efficiency and stop being deflationary.

Deflation is not an inherent attribute of crypto currency. Only some of them are deflationary, most notably Bitcoin.

Dogecoin for example is inflationary. Exactly five billion new Dogecoin will be created and enter circulation every year.

Re: Moving money internationally

#142
> When you move money domestically, your bank and the recipient’s bank use some intermediary system to coordinate a series of agreements which result in your bank agreeing it owes you less than it did prior and the recipient’s bank agreeing that it owes the recipient more than it did previously.

I just don't understand the reason to leave out central bank in these discussions. Yes there's all those agreements, payment rails and so on. However if you look past all that inter-bank transfer results in banks' central-bank reserves getting changed. Let me elaborate.

Banks Foo and Bar have accounts with central bank. When I Transfer USD 100 from my account at Foo to my friend's account at Bar the central bank does -100 to Foo's reserve balance and +100 to Bar's reserve balance. For more details please read this terrific, short and succinct book "Central Banking 101"[1]

International wires, however is a different matter. You have FX market, correspondence banking and what not. But when it comes to moving USD around the NY Fed has absolute and total control over clearance. Any bank that hold USD deposits must have corresponding reserve account with NY Fed. So regardless if SWIFT or any other form of wire transfer, NY Fed can cripple a bank's operations by freezing their reserves. Here's a relevant sanction announced by the US Treasury a week ago [2]. And here's the relevant section.

"Treasury is taking unprecedented action against Russia’s two largest financial institutions, Public Joint Stock Company Sberbank of Russia (Sberbank)and VTB Bank Public Joint Stock Company (VTB Bank), drastically altering their fundamental ability to operate. On a daily basis, Russian financial institutions conduct about $46 billion worth of foreign exchange transactions globally, 80 percent of which are in U.S. dollars. The vast majority of those transactions will now be disrupted. By cutting off Russia’s two largest banks — which combined make up more than half of the total banking system in Russia by asset value — from processing payments through the U.S. financial system. The Russian financial institutions subject to today’s action can no longer benefit from the remarkable reach, efficiency, and security of the U.S. financial system."

Of course they could continue to transfer money through correspondence banks etc., however their existing USD reserves are frozen.

[1] https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/56863052-central-bank...

[2] https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/jy0608

Re: Moving money internationally

#143
post #77

For those saying that crypto is useless, here is a great use case. Authoritarian governments are currently preventing individuals from moving their property across borders. Crypto fixes that.

> moving their property across borders This seems rather naïve. If you can't leave a country because your government requires you to fight a war rather than leave, how do you get yourself, or any physical property, out? If you're in jail, justified or not, how does crypto help you move your property? Or the government you live under simply doesn't allow exiting? What if all international airports refuse to allow flig…

I was presupposing you can get yourself out. If you can't physically leave the country, owning crypto will not help you much, except perhaps to bribe some corrupt official who could smuggle you out. Similarly, if the electric grid goes down, if there is a nuclear war, or if a gamma ray burst causes a mass extinction, we will have other things to worry about. Crypto is not a magic bullet for all the scenarios you can think of, but it can help most cases.

Re: Moving money internationally

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does settling in dollars make any difference? Like he said, if the SWIFT secure messaging service goes down, someone at a bank in Japan has the phone number of someone at a bank in New York and can "wire" money with a phone call instead of sending a SWIFT message. Wires will be orders of magnitude slower, but money is not frozen. And the real effect is that someone in Mumbai receiving a phone call from a Russian…

Because every single transaction in USD must result in a credit and debit to an account at the US Federal Reserve (except for transactions entirely in paper money -- this is the reason drug dealers like paper money.) For a transaction denominated Yuan(Renminbi) that transaction must eventually result in a debit and credit entry at the People's Bank of China (the central bank of China). In the latter case no US entity…

> Because every single transaction in USD must result in a credit and debit to an account at the US Federal Reserve

If I understand it correctly, in this case, isn't the thing prohibiting that transaction the US sanctions (i.e. https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/jy0612), rather than exclusion from SWIFT?

Re: Moving money internationally

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It helps in the case where you can move your body across the border, but not physical property.

Yes, I agree, it certain situations, under certain circumstances, it helps . But the parent comment was "Crypto fixes that", as if it universally removes all barriers and obstacles, which it most definitely does not. I would also pose a question, in the case where you have to leave NOW in order to cross that border -- would you rather have all your money in a bank with accounts currently frozen, or have crypto keys s…

It's an interesting question, and it might depend on what currency the money is denominated in, or what bank. I don't know how I'd manage crypto keys, but it is possible to reduce all your holdings to a 20-word passphrase that you've memorized. So there is the question of whether I've already prepared to bug out. At least for myself, if I fled the country, I don't have any valuable physical property I'd ordinarily take with me when moving, except for a GDM-FW900.

Re: Moving money internationally

#146
post #77

For those saying that crypto is useless, here is a great use case. Authoritarian governments are currently preventing individuals from moving their property across borders. Crypto fixes that.

It's not just "authoritarian governments" but rather "governments" in general, unless you consider the EU government to be authoritarian. And circumventing the law has always been the prime use case for crypto since the beginning. I think everyone has always agreed that it's great for that.

Preventing individuals from moving their wealth across borders makes a government authoritarian for me. It doesn't matter which government it is.

Re: Moving money internationally

#147

Last time I sent money to someone internationally Etherium really was pretty convenient. The Coinbase fees were a little high but otherwise it was near instantaneous, I already had some anyway, and I didn't have to deal with any real hassle.

If your only goal is to send digital value across the planet why would anyone use Ethereum or Bitcoin? There are a ton of alternatives that cost fractions of a penny in transaction fees.

I donated hundreds of dollars worth of Ether to Ukraine and paid like $2 worth in gas fees. That's less than 1%.

Transferwise takes much more %.

Re: Moving money internationally

#148
post #92

This is one of those posts where I found very little substance compared to its length. And I didn’t really come out of it with a better understanding of moving money either (as to how correspondent banks ultimately settle the debts, which in turn becomes how countries settle their debts, etc.). I would’ve appreciated more nuance and information on that, even though it’s a vast topic. To simplify heavily, is SWIFT jus…

> how correspondent banks ultimately settle the debts, which in turn becomes how countries settle their debts.

Ultimately the debts and credits either cancel out, or when there is a flow from one country to another - the creditor countries ends up holding them as foreign currency reserves (in $ in bank accounts) or converts them into treasury bonds, gold or other investments - that may or not be transferable from one country to another.

This tweet lists Russia's foreign reserves:

https://twitter.com/heimbergecon/status/1497513211129597952

Re: Moving money internationally

#149
post #77

For those saying that crypto is useless, here is a great use case. Authoritarian governments are currently preventing individuals from moving their property across borders. Crypto fixes that.

It's not just "authoritarian governments" but rather "governments" in general, unless you consider the EU government to be authoritarian. And circumventing the law has always been the prime use case for crypto since the beginning. I think everyone has always agreed that it's great for that.

> And circumventing the law has always been the prime use case for crypto since the beginning. I think everyone has always agreed that it's great for that.

Absolutely. Even the criminals, scammers and extremists using Signal and its E2EE also use it to communicate with each other whilst sending/receiving funds via a private cryptocurrency called 'MobileCoin' which uses an encrypted blockchain and all transactions are untraceable and scrambled. Even they would agree.

Got to thank Moxie and his friends for creating a great tool used and adored by many criminal masterminds all around the world. /s

Re: Moving money internationally

#150
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>What exactly about the current state of crypto is incompatible with this critique? Ethereum is by far the most widely used cryptocurrency network, and while it consumes a lot of energy relative to the number of transactions in processes, and a lot of energy in absolute terms, it consumes on the order of a thousandths (0.1%) of the world's energy output. It will have switched to Proof of Stake long before it grows l…

Ethereum is now estimated to consume energy equivalent to or greater than mid-sized countries like Greece[1]. You can paint it as tiny, but 0.1% of world energy output is still enormous, for providing what is for the most part a highly speculative set of financial instruments to a limited audience. It's been "about to go PoS" for several years now. The fact is it hasn't. When it does, you can tell people their concer…

> Ethereum is now estimated to consume energy equivalent to or greater than mid-sized countries like Greece[1].

While providing 1/700,000 of the computing power of a Raspberry Pi.

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