231–240 of 362 posts
What is this even referring too? Java is everywhere, especially on the desktop. I wouldn't completely contradict and claim "more than ever", but it sure is not on a decline and/or fall. Applets are gone for good, but that's about it.
Successfully using JavaFX (or OpenJFX as it is now called) in a mission-critical cross-platform app with 50k+ installs. It’s not that bad really. Package size and RAM usage is a bit of an issue, as we bundle it with a jlink’ed (stripped down to what is needed, thanks to Java 9 modules) JDK. Other options like Electron or native Windows/macOS wrappers around a shared core written in C++ were discussed but ultimately d…
Java apps can't be notarized for MacOS according to the developer agreement.
The only Java desktop app I use regularly is Bitwig, a DAW for music production. At least the UI is written in Java and it's fantastic.
https://dawbench.libsyn.com/episode-10-daw-evolution-iii-bit...
IMO the real decline was Oracle. Java used to be a slowly rising language and set of platforms with benevolent oversight from SUN and at least the outlook that it was one of a few things you might want to add after Microsoft's Windows or Apple's OS (Macintosh or later OSX). Then Oracle bought SUN and everyone knew all of the good would eventually be strangled out by the lawyers and models that sought to dominate and…
Oracle certainly wasn't good for Java. But Java-on-the-desktop had been struggling for years before that. You either bundled a complete JVM with your application (fine if you're making a 500MB IDE, not so good for anything smaller) or you had the embarrassment of directing your users to an installer that bundled the Ask toolbar. They might even end up with the security-hole-riddled java browser plugin. And even once…
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In fact Oracle saved Java. Sun was struggling and Java was stagnant at the time. There was hardly any big innovation in the last years under (the) Sun. Java Modules started in the Sun age, but they didn't get it out of the door. J2EE / Java EE was also kind of dozed off. So, while Oracle is for sure not the most sympathetic company, it is good at execution.
Google or IBM would have been better tjam Oracle. This seems like a false choice: Oracle or nothing. Back when Java/Sun were up for grabs: 1) Google by far (they were less evil back then, I think). I mean, they would have saved money and headaches and probably a lot of distracting management meetings. 2) IBM, well ok: they did Eclipse, had their own JDK, and a lot of enterprise customers on locked platforms that coul…
They were one of the first companies to jump into Java, in fact the first conference talk about Java that we had on the campus back in 1996 was sponsored by Oracle.
They also collaborated with Sun on the Network Computer thin clients for Java based computers.
In 1999, all Oracle GUIs for their software were converted into Java applications.
They also own J/Rockit and BEA, whose core technologies now live on OpenJDK (JFR, JIT Cache, GC) as free beer instead of enterprise prices.
IBM already has their own Java, and have done so since forever, including some extensions (AOT is supported since decades), so it is debatable what they would further do, kill OpenJDK and replace it with J9?
Given Dart and Go examples, and Android with outsourced everything (language, IDE, messy updates, forked language), thankfully Google doesn't own Java.
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Basically, every growth figure of the language shows otherwise. Oracle is ain’t saints, but the amount of needless bashing it gets here is astonishing. Regardless of what its other branches are doing, Oracle managed to do one of the smoothest language takeovers where the (stellar) core team is virtually unchanged, the language became completely open sourced and it underwent tremendous changes which resulted in huge g…
> but the amount of needless bashing it gets here is astonishing I don't think it's needless. I'll bash Java as long as it's the language for AP computer science. Imagine a budding young programmer, bright eyed and bushy tailed, eager to get into computer science. They get to class and greet the teacher "Welcome class, let's learn about Java. There's a wide world of computers out there, but your perception of computi…
Sounds harsh? Not at all.
Programming languages are a letters on a digital paper, they don't steal and rape people on dark corners, or beat them to death.
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> And if there's any fault in the language chosen for AP computer science, the blame should go to the designer of the curriculum. Java was recommended for AP CS 22 years ago. At this point I lay less fault at their feet and I'm more interested in why it's still there at long last. > If by blockly you mean the visual interface, what you said is going to be true for any language. My research isn't published yet but I'v…
Well said! Java is the exact opposite of sane defaults: the programmer must explicitly choose defaults at every turn. Furthermore, it constantly feels like the arcane minutiae required in Java is Java-specific , in a way that other languages (C-based, functional) aren't. In Java, if I memorize an incantation, most of the information I've just learned is Java-specific. In C or C++, it's more computing specific. Other…
That honour belongs to C derived languages.
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I mean, C# only got created because Microsoft wasn't allowed to add native GUI features to Java. I feel like you might have missed all the critical history with J++ and the lawsuit from Sun.
Yea, it's kinda hard to say how things would have shaken out. I think Sun was reasonably wary about J++. Microsoft's way of operating at the time was "embrace, extend, extinguish." Microsoft brought out Internet Explore (embrace), added ActiveX (extend), and pretty much extinguished Netscape. All websites could run in IE, but not Netscape - and users are going to use the browser that works for all sites. Sun's lawsui…
Java Swing still lets you make native-looking-and-feeling apps (with some care). I don't know of any new GUI frameworks that let you do the same. I consider this a killer-feature of the framework. It's also very fast, backed by OpenGL and DirectX. It also ships with source code and isn't declarative, so it's trivial to step into as a means to debug why your code isn't working.
> native-looking-and-feeling apps Who are you kidding? > (with some care) No. Even if you were to give it more care than required to rewrite the GUI natively in each major platform, you still wouldn't be close. Look, I get it, there are plenty of applications where a bit of clunk in the GUI is beneath other things on the priority list. That's fine. But the number of java devs who think clobbering together a few nativ…
https://www.amazon.com/Filthy-Rich-Clients-Developing-Applic...
Java's only claim to fame is that's the granddaddy of C#, a far superior language and IMHO one of the greatest computer languages ever created. In addition, Java was ahead of its time, with mid-1990's computing power not up to the job of letting it run smoothly on lower and mid-tier PC's. It also required, for that time, an egregious amount of RAM memory.
C# is a "standing on the shoulders of giants" kinda language IMO; they learned a lot from Java and evolved on it, mainly in terms of developer ergonomics and features that makes their life easier and less tedious. They had less of a design-by-committee team behind it as well, making development a LOT faster than Java, which feels like it's run by ancient, slow moving behemoth companies like Oracle and IBM. I mean I g…
.NET is only open source up to the point that Azure related workloads, and iOS/Android development can be done from non-Windows platforms.
Even for basic stuff like visualizing trace files, you still need to reach out to either Visual Studio proper or Perfview.