Not everyone should meditate • Hacker News Board

Re: Not everyone should meditate

#121

Post by chevman » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 2:13 AM UTC

steve_adams_86 wrote: post #111

cromd wrote: post #107

For me, meditation started a fundamental shift in how I think about free will, and oddly nobody I've mentioned it to in real life has felt this. I used to feel very in-control of my own mind, but after intentionally sitting and monitoring for thoughts, labeling those thoughts, etc, I became sensitive to how thoughts can really come out of nowhere. You can't predict what you will think next. That strikes a little deep…

Likewise, I've found my exploration of meditation and similar things has left me feeling less in control (in some ways, at least), less "me", and much less of what I expected from the outset. I suppose I expected the inverse, in a way... To feel more grounded, connected, and in touch with myself. Instead it seems I've only found that myself isn't what I thought it was. I suppose the most profound aspect is realizing…

This type of experience was exactly what I experienced my first few LSD trips. It's a type of disassociation or ego death, where you really feel deeply the experience of observing yourself, your thoughts, from a seemingly separate viewpoint.

It made me question reality in a way I hadn't before.

Is all of this pre-determined? Is it arbitrary? Is it random? Is there an underlying meaning here we should recognize?

I came to believe that love, connection, existing itself, were all somehow significant. Hard to say if this is real, or just part of the pattern :)

Re: Not everyone should meditate

#122

Post by jes » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 2:14 AM UTC

steve_adams_86 wrote: post #111

cromd wrote: post #107

For me, meditation started a fundamental shift in how I think about free will, and oddly nobody I've mentioned it to in real life has felt this. I used to feel very in-control of my own mind, but after intentionally sitting and monitoring for thoughts, labeling those thoughts, etc, I became sensitive to how thoughts can really come out of nowhere. You can't predict what you will think next. That strikes a little deep…

Likewise, I've found my exploration of meditation and similar things has left me feeling less in control (in some ways, at least), less "me", and much less of what I expected from the outset. I suppose I expected the inverse, in a way... To feel more grounded, connected, and in touch with myself. Instead it seems I've only found that myself isn't what I thought it was. I suppose the most profound aspect is realizing…

I'm 62 and if I'm understanding you, it's been the same for me the last four or five years. I received a lot of benefit from Sam's work, as well as from Alan Watts, Francis Lucille, Robert Wolfe, and other Advaita Vedanta / non-dual teachers.

This journey has greatly increased my ability to feel compassion for all people, even people that I think are acting unkindly and doing great damage in the world.

Just for grins, here's a YouTube channel that I think you might enjoy:

https://www.youtube.com/c/SamaneriJayasara

I get chills when I listen to her version of the Bloodstream Sermon, too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_DzXYI7xRU

Re: Not everyone should meditate

#123

Post by SMAAART » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 2:19 AM UTC

Agree.

I mediated an average of 10-15 hours/week for about 10 years, and... it didn't do much for me.

What instead did a lot for me was Zen Practice:

- going to the temple

- going to retreat

- Zen reading

- Dharma talks

- Interview with the Zen Masters

- Working at the Temple

And then, meeting the inflated ego of some - but not all - the Zen characters in low-level leadership.

I still practice Zen, but I do it as a Free-Agent LOL

Recently I realized something, not so much achieving Nirvana, more like a DUH-moment: mediation is practice for mindfulness, and at any point in time, no matter where I am, no matter what I do, I can practice mindfulness. Here, I am doing it right now...

And don't get me started in all the pseudo-meditation practices and "applications".

Re: Not everyone should meditate

#124

Post by redisman » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 2:20 AM UTC

skilled wrote: post #20

This is a great perspective. I know what the author means with it, too. I spent 5 years in daily meditation practice (twice a day for 20 minutes) and it completely altered my state of mind. I was a naturally introverted person when I started, though I believe that meditation really stepped it up a notch for me. The strange thing about meditation and the idea of living in the present is that it completely transcends y…

It’s interesting that everyone who has had a bad experience seems to have really tuned their practice up to 11. Silent retreats etc. seem to show up in these stories a lot

Re: Not everyone should meditate

#125

Post by kayodelycaon » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 2:25 AM UTC

mistrial9 wrote: post #13

carterschonwald wrote: post #4

Theres actually some evidence (or a least a lot of pubmed papers) that touch on how for certain at risk populations, meditation can increase the probability of an episode of psychosis! (so anyone who has any family history of schizophrenia or other things in the same space, really need to be careful of meditation and friends) see these google scholar results for more info: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=meditat…

I believe that ' family history of schizophrenia ' is not fully understood.. there is an interrelated system of health, genetics, aging, stress, nutrition and extreme experiences, which can go many ways.. I believe that 'schizophrenia' is real and serious, but that the factors involved in leading to it, and its treatments, are not fully understood.. with that said, I believe there is science evidence that marijuana a…

Both schizophrenia and bipolar disorder are highly correlated with family history. There is a clear connection something genetic causes them. What that is… we don’t know.

Fortunately, we don’t need exact answers to do science. :)

Psychiatry (and therapy) is far more advanced that it was just a few decades ago. It’s incredible we are where we are today. American culture is starting to accept and talk about mental health.

Where will we be in another 30 years? :)

Re: Not everyone should meditate

#126

Post by cromd » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 2:25 AM UTC

steve_adams_86 wrote: post #111

cromd wrote: post #107

For me, meditation started a fundamental shift in how I think about free will, and oddly nobody I've mentioned it to in real life has felt this. I used to feel very in-control of my own mind, but after intentionally sitting and monitoring for thoughts, labeling those thoughts, etc, I became sensitive to how thoughts can really come out of nowhere. You can't predict what you will think next. That strikes a little deep…

Likewise, I've found my exploration of meditation and similar things has left me feeling less in control (in some ways, at least), less "me", and much less of what I expected from the outset. I suppose I expected the inverse, in a way... To feel more grounded, connected, and in touch with myself. Instead it seems I've only found that myself isn't what I thought it was. I suppose the most profound aspect is realizing…

Yeah, and I think all of this brings us closer to the truth as you say - that ultimately we are responding to cellular/electrical activity. I'm inclined to believe truth-finding is good overall, but we also have to buckle up for some weird stuff then.

Sam Harris, while I never followed his meditation talk much, had one example recently that really drove home the "can't predict thought" concept. Something like "think of a song, any song", and then he challenged you to think about why you picked that song, and not one of the other songs you know. And then, despite whatever explanation you concoct, think about all the songs it didn't even occur to you to choose that fit the same criteria. It's kind of magical.

I do think all this can make us more tolerant towards other people, but it's still a bit circular. If it's all meat and electrons, they're destined to commit the crime, and we're destined to lock them up. (edit: I mean: if they commit the crime, you can't blame them, and if someone jails them, you also can't blame them)

As far as I know, the trend is that older people tend to mellow out - usually! And I think that having a sudden realization that you're not so in-control can be tough. It can catch you off guard if the time isn't right. But after a few years, hopefully people course-correct a bit and start to give themselves more buffer and steer away from activities that exacerbate those anxieties. Or at the very least, one may become more numb to it as the novelty wears off.

Re: Not everyone should meditate

#127

Post by DennisP » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 2:35 AM UTC

cromd wrote: post #107

For me, meditation started a fundamental shift in how I think about free will, and oddly nobody I've mentioned it to in real life has felt this. I used to feel very in-control of my own mind, but after intentionally sitting and monitoring for thoughts, labeling those thoughts, etc, I became sensitive to how thoughts can really come out of nowhere. You can't predict what you will think next. That strikes a little deep…

The thoughts do come up out of nowhere, unpredictably. But with practice, I can choose whether to inhabit them, or simply note them with quiet amusement and let them pass by. I can also pick something to concentrate on, and stay mostly focused on that, while those extra little thoughts just flutter in the background. This all seems to me like an enhancement of free will.

(Meditating almost daily.)

Re: Not everyone should meditate

#128

Post by julienb_sea » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 2:36 AM UTC

cromd wrote: post #107

For me, meditation started a fundamental shift in how I think about free will, and oddly nobody I've mentioned it to in real life has felt this. I used to feel very in-control of my own mind, but after intentionally sitting and monitoring for thoughts, labeling those thoughts, etc, I became sensitive to how thoughts can really come out of nowhere. You can't predict what you will think next. That strikes a little deep…

We don't exhibit complete control over our thoughts, that is provably impossible and anecdotally obvious when reflecting on errant thoughts we have experienced.

Free will is about behavior, not thoughts. Our free will is demonstrated by our ability to consciously choose whether and how to act when presented with thoughts and emotions.

Re: Not everyone should meditate

#129

Post by littlethrowaway » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 2:40 AM UTC

heyoni wrote: post #117

littlethrowaway wrote: post #110

No, they certainly shouldn't... for various reasons I did a vipassana 10 day silent retreat back in 2010, and, ended up triggering a bipolar episode[0]. No, there was no history of that in my family, it was a complete surprise. This obviously doesn't happen to everyone doing it, but, while my blog is very much buried now, I still get yearly mails from people saying that the same thing happened to them.. [0]. http://l…

I quit on day 5. My life started playing itself in my head on repeat and I started to focus on all the pain. I would imagine the universe dying and coming back to life where everything, especially some nasty events would reoccur ad infinitum. I was convinced that the people who were unlucky in this life were actually suffering for eternity and practically lost it. I had a panic attack, and then another and finally ta…

I'm sorry to hear that - and I hope you're doing fine now. I really didn't have any "bad" experience like that (mania is awesome fun ;)), of course, the downside was depression followed by years of medication. They make such a deal about it being a "bad idea to leave midway through" ... I'm glad your teacher said you should (although even then, they're really ejecting you in what must be a pretty vulnerable situation). Anyway, hope you're doing fine now.

Re: Not everyone should meditate

#130

Post by skmurphy » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 2:50 AM UTC

iaw wrote: post #92

lousyd wrote: post #86

The argument here seems to be that LSD can be dangerous, meditation is kind of like LSD, and therefore meditation can be dangerous. It does seem like a possibility, but you'd think if someone were going to write about it they'd try to present evidence of some sort to support the point.

Meditation can cause severe psychotic episodes in some people [1]. The author may not present the best evidence but meditation is dangerous for some percentage of the population's mental health. [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17848828/#:~:text=Conclusion... .

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17848828/ documents a single case.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31668156/ is a survey of 19 studies that identified 28 cases. Conclusion: "Of the 28 cases reported, 14 patients had certain precipitating factors like insomnia, lack of food intake, history of mental illness, stress, and psychoactive substance use."

Given the millions who meditate I think risk is less than a range of ordinary daily activities we engage in that can entail a life changing injury: crossing the street, diving into a pool to swim, and eating peanut butter (aflatoxin risk) to name three. The suggestion to consult a mental health professional, in the absence of any prior psychological issues that were significant, seems to me to be a waste of time and money.