Ice cream machine hackers sue McDonald's • Hacker News Board

Re: Ice cream machine hackers sue McDonald's

#81

Post by joezydeco » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 5:38 PM UTC

chongli wrote: post #53

tfvlrue wrote: post #26

I've been following this story for a while. When people say the soft serve machine is "broken", they really mean "unavailable to serve ice cream to customers". That could mean something as innocuous as performing a pasteurization cycle during the day (because it failed to run at night for some reason, perhaps the machine's clock is set wrong). It could also mean there is a physical problem with some part of the machi…

It also needs to be said that similar machines provided by Taylor to McDonalds' competitors do not have anywhere close to the amount of downtime that McDonalds' machines have. There's also ample evidence that software updates to Taylor's McDonalds machines have made the error codes more cryptic and the machines more unreliable over time. I think there's a pretty strong legal case to be made that these machines are de…

"It also needs to be said that similar machines provided by Taylor to McDonalds' competitors do not have anywhere close to the amount of downtime that McDonalds' machines have"

But they're not similar machines. The machines in question are models developed for McDonald's that use internal heat treatment to pasteurize the machine and clean it on a more frequent basis. The intent was to keep the machine running longer than previous models, the opposite of your assertion.

The other models need to be disassembled and cleaned by hand to maintain food safety.

That doesn't dismiss the complexity of the product and the likelihood that breakdowns happen, because obviously they do.

Source: I've done engineering work on the C602. I know how it works.

Re: Ice cream machine hackers sue McDonald's

#82

Post by ziml77 » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 5:43 PM UTC

w-m wrote: post #61

atlantas wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seconded. That is excellent piece of work; some of the best journalism I've seen in years.

The video makes some good points, but overall it’s very repetitive. Just count how many times the shot of the manual with “call a service technician” is used, always with similar narration, or the one of the finances of the company who make 25% of their revenue with parts and service. This could have easily been a 5 minute video. Also, it does not offer any explanation why McDonalds is the only customer of the Taylor…

McDonald's machines are custom manufactured for them by Taylor. It's not surprising that other places don't have the same issues.

Re: Ice cream machine hackers sue McDonald's

#83

Post by wronglebowski » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 5:44 PM UTC

AdmiralAsshat wrote: post #73

wronglebowski wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've commented on this previously as I worked as a jack of all trades for a McDonald's franchisee for years. The machines tanks and shaving cores must be disassembled and cleaned every two weeks. They have a very intelligent series of sensors and internal mechanisms that make it impossible to defeat or cheat. This is not a low skilled job. I'd say it would be easier to change your cars oil than complete this. There's…

> This is not a low skilled job. I'd say it would be easier to change your cars oil than complete this. There's multiple gaskets and seals which need to be rotated quarterly in a tune up kit. While we were hiring at minimum wage the shake machine trained people were making 15$. I can only imagine what they're making now. Genuine question: Mom-and-pop shops used to somehow keep their frozen yogurt machines running wit…

I'm vaguely familiar with the pay by weight frozen yogurt shops. I can't speak from first hand experience but I would say that if you had 6+ machines and that was all your business did it would be a non issue. A few locations, rotate your cleaning days, could be handled by one individual that services them all.

Re: Ice cream machine hackers sue McDonald's

#84

Post by gruez » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 5:44 PM UTC

paulmd wrote: post #77

ansible wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You would think that the McDonalds franchise owners would push back on McDonalds corporate about this issue. They would rightly be complaining that they are losing revenue because the Taylor ice cream machine has low reliability. Even one service call per month is a significant cost to a low-margin business like a quick-serve restaurant. It is quite possible there is some hinky corporate politics and such within McDo…

McDonald's exerts extremely extremely tight control over its franchisees by corporate standards. Every single thing about a McDonald's is meticulously specified and regulated by corporate, from the equipment installations to the number of pickle slices that go on a burger and the soap that goes into the bathroom. Franchisees in general don't wear the pants in this relationship. If McD corporate says you use this mach…

>but it's not like there's a union here

https://nationalownersassociation.com/join/

Re: Ice cream machine hackers sue McDonald's

#85

Post by ansible » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 5:47 PM UTC

paulmd wrote: post #77

ansible wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You would think that the McDonalds franchise owners would push back on McDonalds corporate about this issue. They would rightly be complaining that they are losing revenue because the Taylor ice cream machine has low reliability. Even one service call per month is a significant cost to a low-margin business like a quick-serve restaurant. It is quite possible there is some hinky corporate politics and such within McDo…

McDonald's exerts extremely extremely tight control over its franchisees by corporate standards. Every single thing about a McDonald's is meticulously specified and regulated by corporate, from the equipment installations to the number of pickle slices that go on a burger and the soap that goes into the bathroom. Franchisees in general don't wear the pants in this relationship. If McD corporate says you use this mach…

Oh I know that McD is at the top when it comes to controlling franchisees.

But if 13% of restaurants have the ice cream machine non-functional at any given time, that means half or more of them are having the problem at some time in the last month.

If you're going to ignore a problem at that scale... well, that's just terrible.

Re: Ice cream machine hackers sue McDonald's

#86

Post by ansible » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 5:48 PM UTC

gruez wrote: post #80

ansible wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on how the kickback is routed. General franchisee revenue goes in a big bucket allocated across the entire corporation. A specific kickback might be going into one guy's pocket... If that one guy has sufficient political clout within the corporation, it could cause the present situation.

> A specific kickback might be going into one guy's pocket That's also super illegal, eg. https://www.justice.gov/usao-ndca/pr/former-netflix-executiv...

And yet being illegal doesn't stop people from constantly trying it. They do try to be more clever about hiding it as time goes on.

Re: Ice cream machine hackers sue McDonald's

#87

Post by s_dev » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 5:49 PM UTC

tfvlrue wrote: post #26

I've been following this story for a while. When people say the soft serve machine is "broken", they really mean "unavailable to serve ice cream to customers". That could mean something as innocuous as performing a pasteurization cycle during the day (because it failed to run at night for some reason, perhaps the machine's clock is set wrong). It could also mean there is a physical problem with some part of the machi…

How come these issues aren't existent in McDonald's in Europe?

Re: Ice cream machine hackers sue McDonald's

#88

Post by amelius » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 5:53 PM UTC

tfvlrue wrote: post #26

I've been following this story for a while. When people say the soft serve machine is "broken", they really mean "unavailable to serve ice cream to customers". That could mean something as innocuous as performing a pasteurization cycle during the day (because it failed to run at night for some reason, perhaps the machine's clock is set wrong). It could also mean there is a physical problem with some part of the machi…

So "broken" -> "mismanaged".

Re: Ice cream machine hackers sue McDonald's

#89

Post by SkyBelow » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 5:54 PM UTC

AdmiralAsshat wrote: post #73

wronglebowski wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've commented on this previously as I worked as a jack of all trades for a McDonald's franchisee for years. The machines tanks and shaving cores must be disassembled and cleaned every two weeks. They have a very intelligent series of sensors and internal mechanisms that make it impossible to defeat or cheat. This is not a low skilled job. I'd say it would be easier to change your cars oil than complete this. There's…

> This is not a low skilled job. I'd say it would be easier to change your cars oil than complete this. There's multiple gaskets and seals which need to be rotated quarterly in a tune up kit. While we were hiring at minimum wage the shake machine trained people were making 15$. I can only imagine what they're making now. Genuine question: Mom-and-pop shops used to somehow keep their frozen yogurt machines running wit…

Is part-time teenager labor the same as low skilled labor? In general but also more specifically to the time period you were referencing?

While teenagers generally have low experience, some of them are have the ability to perform at a level above low skill and are able to follow complex instructions. Look at any of them in more advanced classes who are performing academics at a level beyond what would qualify as low skill. These could've been the teenager running the machines at those mom and pop shops of yesteryear.

It does lead me to question where are they working now and why not at McDonald's. Given a moment of thought I've already generated a number of hypothesis that might explain it, but I'm too lacking in relevant data to narrow them down.

Re: Ice cream machine hackers sue McDonald's

#90

Post by SkyBelow » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 5:58 PM UTC

kmeisthax wrote: post #9

raldi wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t understand your opening sentence. Why would they keep it unplugged?

Parent post appears to be alleging that McDonalds - or their franchisees - only serve ice cream purely to starve competitors out of the fast food market, and then disconnects or damages those machines in order to get out of having to actually sell that ice cream. Personally, I don't think that holds water. Everyone involved in this drama wants ice cream in the stores. It's not like McDonalds corporate has some Jobsia…

>Personally, I don't think that holds water.

While not quite as deliberate an action as (great?) grandparent was suggesting, I could see the possibility existing where fixing the machines is too much hassle until a competitor opens and they begin having a noticeable impact on customer retention, increasing the expected ROI on fixing the machine enough for management/owner to take action.