Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination • Hacker News Board

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#421

Post by quadrifoliate » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 3:16 PM UTC

alistairSH wrote: post #414

quadrifoliate wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It consisted of going to some Indian dude’s house for an hour every Saturday for a summer. If that’s a game changer what does that say about American K-8 math education? Ironically, this is scouting round a theory I have long espoused – the failure of American K-8 math education has nothing to do with teaching , and everything to do with culture . Sure, going to some Indian dude's house every Saturday for a summer…

- Your family bothered enough to think about sending you there, rather than spending time keeping up with the Joneses for the latest model of garden sprinkler - Your family quietly put down one thousand(!) dollars towards additional education instead of complaining about the schooling endlessly over $15 bottomless mimosas on Saturday You really think economically disadvantaged families are sitting around sipping mimo…

> You really think economically disadvantaged families are sitting around sipping mimosas and worrying about garden sprinklers? Wow.

None of my comments were scoped to economically disadvantaged families – in fact my thesis is explicitly focused on culture, not economic circumstances or the education system. There are plenty of economically advantaged families whose kids are doing poorly at math.

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#422

Post by notSupplied » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 3:18 PM UTC

AniseAbyss wrote: post #368

lukas099 wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is creating a purely merit-based institution really an identity policy though? I see it as an identity-blind policy, unless you define identity to include merit.

The fallacy of meritocracy. You stand on the shoulders of your parents. If you come from a family of crackheads on the bad side of the rail tracks you already lost the race long before 8th grade.

Spending extra time reading to your kids, sending your kids to tutors, paying for summer programs, sweating over neighborhood to move into for their good schools...many of these things are now considered “inter-generational privilege transfer”. But not long ago, they were simply called “good parenting”.

Why even bother doing good parenting when the ideologues in charge want to “fallacy of meritocracy” away any advantages you have given to your kids?

I used to be pretty annoyed by conservatives boasting about "family values". I thought it was just performative virtue signaling. But looking at how the far left views the hard work of parenting as something that ought to be "equalized away" has me thinking maybe the I was wrong.

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#423

Post by tartoran » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 3:18 PM UTC

j7ake wrote: post #119

guynamedloren wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thought provoking, but the cynical side of me says that this is easily gameable.

It’s probably not that gameable because universities already give aid on a need basis. A real cynical view would say that top universities benefit more from accepting students from rich families than poor.

Need is gameable too

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#424

Post by Chris2048 » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 3:18 PM UTC

Wolfenstein98k wrote: post #301

Chris2048 wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "sorry, we have enough people of your color This is how US green card applications work too though.

Isn't that why you also have the diversity lottery?

That's what I'm talking about. Unless you have familial ties, or you are a refugee, exceptional worker or some other special status, it's a diversity-weighted lottery.

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#425

Post by 0des » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 3:19 PM UTC

SyzygistSix wrote: post #317

Gareth321 wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is studying hard really "gaming the system"? The rules are clear for everyone: learn the material and you will do well. The solution here seems simple: provide additional study support for people not named Smith. Unfortunately, most of the academic achievement gap is because of what happens in the home, and this is a place where lawmakers have been reluctant to intervene for obvious reasons. Lawmakers cannot force pa…

Studying to pass the SAT is gaming the system if ideally we want well-rounded, whole people to be the elite leadership in the future. Not that including extracurriculars doesn't weight admissions towards the children of current elites. But the idea is that multiple metrics cancel out the biases of the individual metrics. And I understand some people are okay with elite education and others think that is itself the pr…

Well rounded and whole is an odd term. Can you explain that another way? Everyone who becomes sufficiently specialized and proficient in one thing is limited in the breadth of their experiences due to their metaphorical 10,000 hours being spent somewhere else (study).

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#426

Post by SyzygistSix » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 3:20 PM UTC

temp8964 wrote: post #340

rayiner wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That addresses sudden expenses that people can cover without resorting to credit, not planned expenses. Two very different things—a lot of folks who couldn’t make a $1,000 unexpected payment for cash flow reasons wouldn’t blink about $1,000 extra in a 5-year car loan where they can plan around the extra expense. Americans are chronically cash poor because their expenses rise to meet their income. Poor immigrant famil…

Exactly, it's all about life choices. Many Chinese immigrants never go to bars / night clubs, and almost never eat outside, and almost never travels. They save all the money for their kids' education. Some other ethnic groups, even low-income families frequently spend money on those things. Yes. It's your right to spend the money the way you like. But you don't get to cry for no money for education when you spend mon…

Because some cultural differences are different than others. And the ones that are especially detrimental won't change unless people of that demographic are exposed to and learn from successful people who engage in beneficial habits that solve the issue.

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#427

Post by alistairSH » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 3:21 PM UTC

giantg2 wrote: post #412

alistairSH wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Set objective criteria for acceptance, advanced placement, etc. Then stick to it. We shouldn't be holding opportunities away from someone because if their heritage, or someone else's heritage. The new criteria were objective, just different. They dropped the admissions test, which was a sort of SAT-lite exam, instead relying more on previous academic achievement. The impact of this was brining women to near parity in…

"Among other things, standardized testing requirements were eliminated, and subjective admission criteria were added in an effort to deny slots to Asian-Americans and boost enrollment among blacks and Hispanics." Emphasis mine. They added subjective criteria. That's the problem. Removing standardized tests and relying on GPA or something would be fine.

A holistic review will be done of students whose applications demonstrate enhanced merit; 550 seats will then be offered to the highest-evaluated students. Students will be evaluated on their grade point average (GPA); a student portrait sheet where they will be asked to demonstrate Portrait of a Graduate attributes and 21st century skills; a problem-solving essay; and experience factors, including students who are economically disadvantaged, English language learners, special education students, or students who are currently attending underrepresented middle schools.

https://www.fcps.edu/registration/thomas-jefferson-high-scho...

My interpretation is the test was removed, the test/application fee was removed, and essays and a portfolio were added. I can't find criteria for evaluating the essay or portfolio (or how much they contribute vs GPA), but those are parts of other standardized tests (SAT, etc), so it's not some crazy new idea.

Either way, the policy was race-blind, at least in language. And in practice the prior policy was resulting in massively disproportionate representation from some groups at the expense of others.

Maybe the new policy isn't ideal, but neither was the previous policy. Disallowing progress because it might hurt a group currently profiting off the status quo doesn't seem like an ideal solution either.

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#428

Post by alxtye » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 3:28 PM UTC

a_c_s wrote: post #361

Kharvok wrote: post #350

People find the truth that standardized testing and school placement is mostly expressive of IQ uncomfortable. IQ is mostly genetic. When this doesn't evenly distribute across people groups people find it problematic. Again, this truth is uncomfortable. North east Asians in the US at or below the poverty line score better on average on the SAT than African-Americans from households with incomes above 100k. If there w…

IQ is neither fixed for a given person over their lifetime nor is it objectively measurable across different populations.

IQ tests are probably the most reliable tests in psychology. IQ is generally stable from the age of 6. Hundreds of studies have demonstrated a 15 point or 1 standard deviation difference between the intelligence test scores of African Americans and White Americans.

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#429

Post by gloryjulio » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 3:29 PM UTC

donatj wrote: post #411

rayiner wrote: post #311

I attended TJ, back when it was about 30% Asian. I’ve always felt like the school should do more to get more underrepresented minorities. I’ve found the recent efforts very off-putting however. It’s based on a modern strain of social justice ideology that adopts some very ugly assumptions about Asians. I’m reminded of Alison Collins in San Francisco, who called Asians “house n—-ers” and said they use “white supremaci…

I was with you right up to > But it’s a few thousand dollars if that (as low as under $1,000) which is reachable to all but destitute families. Selling my blue collar parents on $1,000 to slightly improve my chances of getting into a slightly better school so I could spend even more money? That’s absolutely not happening. I’d have gotten a pat on the back and told there’s no shame in community college. I think you mi…

That's exactly what he is saying. There is a huge culture underlying. I came form this background and I personally knew tons of east Asian parents would do this(don't much know about south Asian cultures). They would work in the day, come home and work with children's study. Many even attend their children's tuition classes with them. Education value is held pretentiously in east Asian culture, regardless of the income or whether they are in Asia or in North America.

I even knew many parents are guiding the children to take up programming at a very young age. `Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg went through this. We should to`.

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#430

Post by randomifcpfan » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 3:32 PM UTC

mschuster91 wrote: post #195

com2kid wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America needs to build more colleges. Based on current wtf pricing and demand, 2xing the number might do it.

Or fix the demand side. Right now, megacorps are abusing colleges as a filter to weed out people who can't cope with high stress environments or keep deadlines and, even more egregious, load the cost for a lot of what used to be employer-paid on-the-job training onto the students via student loans. A "bullshit job" should not require a college degree.

In California, if an employment test is passed at different rates by different races or genders, that in itself is considered evidence of illegal discrimination. Employers use a college degree requirement as a proxy for competency that doesn’t get them sued by the state.