Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

wired.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

451–460 of 592 posts

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#451

Post by mama123 »

thumbsup-_- wrote: post #356

> A pat on the shoulder might be a friendly greeting—or a search for a sacred thread that some dominant-caste Hindu men wear beneath their shirts I'm a non-dalit Indian working in silicon valley. I know that caste based discrimination is still prevalent in India and not surprised that it continues in here in silicon valley as well amongst Indian community but I'm surprised to read this part in the article. I have nev…

Much of what the English speaking elite in India & much of the west consumes as a theory on caste is a handiwork of a colonial-evangelist mission.

So much of it has to be taken with a boatload of salt. Since it is politically incorrect to challenge the established views, one simply has to rely on ones own observation. Especially if they are missing the woods for the trees on these debates.

It is very much in line with the western debates on race inequality, feminism or gender pronouns. Those claiming to fight these inequalities, intentionally or unintentionally create more fissures and distrust.

And unlike the western world where there has been a systemic slavery or persecution of indigenous population, in India there are literally thousands of castes and not always a clear idea of hierarchy. The hierarchy was mostly an academic theory built on flimsy propaganda.

Also the very same people who see privilege among sections of the Hindus are completely blind to the privilege of Christians or Muslims, considering that large parts of India have been under Islamic and Christian colonisation for several centuries. And Hindus have faced the same kind of violence from these two groups as much of the rest of the world.

In a way caste might have been the social glue that allowed the indigenous people to put up a fight and maintain their Hindu identity.

There is a strong correlation between caste and economic mobility & urbanisation. The ones who preserve their caste the most are ones who can gain some privileges in the form of vote banks, social security or class benefits, this easily excludes 90% of the urban educated masses.

In a country of 1.4 billion, sure there are large swathes of population still behest with the caste problem, but also in a country where 1/3 of the people are malnourished and have stunted growth, caste is hardly the biggest problem and might actually be a evolved social survival mechanism.

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#452

Post by graderjs »

icelancer wrote: post #442
graderjs wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No this is so important. I agree that the reality of international and domestic generational conflict there we are mostly oblivious to in the West, should inform HR policy. These things are real, and discrimination based on them can be concealed and is often as the very fascinating article says, invisible to outsiders. I'm with you on the way to address this is by bringing more attention to it than with other comment…

That's all well and good, and the policy might indeed actually work. Unfortunately it's absolutely illegal. Protected classes are not protected from just racism, but discrimination of all forms.

Well maybe the law needs to change...I mean you're saying that protected groups are protected from positive discrimination? Taking into account biases faced might actually help prevent those biases.

edit: actually I realized I'm not sure what you're saying..also I'm not sure I understand how you see what I describe as illegal, if you care to share more about how you feel about that, that might be cool :) :p xxx ;p

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#453

Post by cameronh90 »

stuxnet79 wrote: post #345
cameronh90 wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a correct way to ask about your family background/ ethnicity/whatever? For context, I am a white English-seeming (but not actually) person in London. I never ask, as I don't want to offend, however I am often quite curious. Not because I doubt anyone's claim to being British - most British Indians are likely more British than I am. Usually, I just want to talk about food, ask if you've been to India, hear yo…

As a visible minority who has lived in a western country for more than 2 decades I bristle every time I'm asked this question. The majority of the time it isn't asked from a place of genuine curiosity but as a way of boxing you in and "other"ing you. I shouldn't need to justify my existence to you just because my skin color stands out. Also restricting your exploration to just food topics doesn't make you curious or…

I'm not restricting my exploration to food, it's just people often like to talk about food. It's the cultural equivalent of talking about the weather. Hopefully things can get deeper after that.

Obviously I can't know what it's like to be asked this kind of thing constantly for years, but I can say that travelling in non-white countries as a white person, you do get asked that kind of stuff a lot (or people touch my hair, beard, talk about how tall I am etc.). Or stuff about Scotland or the royal family. I've never minded, but perhaps after years it would get annoying.

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#454

Post by JohnWhigham »

tomp wrote: post #445
jimmydddd wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ottomans (Turks) occupied Greece for 400 years, ending in 1821. Turkey constantly trying to take over Greek islands, etc. Turkey dropping off immigrants on rafts just outside Greek shores. But it doesn't seem to translate to the US much, especially in second generation.

That's quite far ago? If that's your criteria, who can interview Germans without bias?

Some cultures hold on to bitter historical sentiments more than others.

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#455

Post by dash2 »

mama123 wrote: post #451
thumbsup-_- wrote: post #356

> A pat on the shoulder might be a friendly greeting—or a search for a sacred thread that some dominant-caste Hindu men wear beneath their shirts I'm a non-dalit Indian working in silicon valley. I know that caste based discrimination is still prevalent in India and not surprised that it continues in here in silicon valley as well amongst Indian community but I'm surprised to read this part in the article. I have nev…

Much of what the English speaking elite in India & much of the west consumes as a theory on caste is a handiwork of a colonial-evangelist mission. So much of it has to be taken with a boatload of salt. Since it is politically incorrect to challenge the established views, one simply has to rely on ones own observation. Especially if they are missing the woods for the trees on these debates. It is very much in line wit…

That’s all very well but it’s pretty obvious that Dalits get a raw deal in India, and if you don’t think so, then you may just be kidding yourself. Equally, if you think of Muslims as “privileged” under the current BJP government, you need a reality check.

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#456

Post by jvvw »

throwaway_dcnt wrote: post #11

The reason for my current user name here at hn was this exact form of racism. It is the first post I made when I created this throwaway. I was assured that my experience was unique and not widespread. I am both sad and happy to see this, sad because it exists, happy because it is getting some attention here at HN. I would like to take this opportunity to point out that everyone of us needs to be vigilant about this t…

At the organisation where I worked at in the UK, all interviews were panel interviews - it's not ideal in various ways but it does it harder for discrimination (not just racial discrimination) to slip through the net - obviously just because something is illegal doesn't mean that it can't happen and people can't get away with it. I think they also tried to make sure all panels had a woman on them for example - I ended up on more than my share of panels as a result.

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#457

Post by shankr »

Lascaille wrote: post #427
sa1 wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Refugees of Indian and African origin aren't being allowed to cross borders or board trains. I presume that is what OP is referring to.

>Refugees of Indian and African origin aren't being allowed to cross borders or board trains. One man's crisis is another opportunity. I wonder how hard it is to enter the Ukraine now and then cross to Europe with no papers as a 'refugee, formerly expat-student.'

> 'refugee, formerly expat-student.'

They want to go back to India, not go stay in another European country. What do you think they are going to do when they arrive in another EU country? They can't stay there as refugee since they have Indian passport and India isn't fighting some war. Also being refugee is no fun either. I can't believe some people feel like there is some fun to walk over to a country without any resource and legal means and stay there as a refugee.

Even if what you are saying is true, what do you expect is the solution? Keep them all in Ukraine and let them die in some war which they have nothing to do with.

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#458

Post by zozbot234 »

throwaway_281 wrote: post #436
kumarvvr wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it is easy to do so. Western media is extremely India phobic and Hindu phobic. The caste system, as per scriptures, is just a categorization of work that people do. Every one is prescribed their duties and jobs as per caste. However, there are innumerable instances in the scriptures when people have taken up jobs of other castes, as per situation demands. The discrimination of people based on castes, is an in…

> The caste system, as per scriptures, is just a categorization of work that people do. This is blatantly false. Can you cite me some? Even the Lord Rama killed Shambuka because he wanted to learn the Vedas as a Sudra. Another incident I don't remember from the Mahabharata where one person was keen for reaching brahminic status. And that was denied. And was said as an example. > there are innumerable instances in the…

The story of Shambuka is thought by many to be an unreliable interpolation within the Ramayana. And even then, Shambuka's violation of dharma is said to involve his improper performing of tapas, a kind of ascetic penance that's often criticized in both Buddhism and Hinduism; certainly, it's not considered universally good. It's not to be confused with meditation or reflection in a general sense, of which we are even told wrt. the Shudras that live in the forest (i.e. pursuing Vanaprastha).

(To top it all, apparently there's even a tradition which says the wise Shambuka ultimately managed to perfect his dharma by means of Rama's intervention, whilst the Brahmins who had requested that very intervention are criticized. Thus adding all sorts of nuances to the story that can hardly be described as "casteist".)

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#459

Post by zxienin »

russelldjimmy wrote: post #330
unmole wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am from “upper caste”. My experience might not be commonly heard perspective. In 10th grade of schooling, my parents changed my lastname to avoid that folks figure out the caste. Due to affirmative action (aka reservation) on steroids, upper caste were losing opportunities. My parents wanted to avoid that I lose out on selection, promotions.., where subjective discretion was involved. I'm sorry but this makes no…

Perhaps if something doesn’t make sense, ask for clarity instead of asserting that changing one’s surname makes zero difference. I am also familiar with many upper-caste people who have changed their surname to something generic (like Kumar) to avoid revealing their caste. This doesn’t just apply to job seeking in private enterprises. They do this to avoid any kind of attention drawn to their surname, and hence caste…

yes.

Surname change was to avoid revealing caste. No appropriation of "lower caste" to get favorable quota.

I have no evidentiary way to conclude if change ended up helping me or not. I just never had to face caste based discrimination.

I shared the experience, so folks on this forums come out knowing more than what is typically seen in media.

No rhetoric. There is no denying, that problem is real.

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#460

Post by nirav72 »

thereare5lights wrote: post #362
nirav72 wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know I might be oversimplifying this. But you can legally change your last name. But you cannot change your race. Unless, your phenotype is somewhat ambiguous and can pass as a person of the majority racial group. But that is rare. By conflating casteism with racism, you're diluting the meaning of what racism is and systemic effects it has had on minorities in the United States. By the way I'm a person of Indian an…

If your argument is that one is worse than the other because you can hide then you didn't take into account things like plastic surgery or bleaching one's skin or straightening one's hair. If you're going to tell someone to just abandon their family name then why not tell them to get plastic surgery or anything else to modify their appearance? It's a bad argument.

If simply bleaching one's skin or straightening hair allowed one to hide their racial phenotype ,then millions would be doing it and we wouldn't have all these problems. Race is immutable in most parts of the world.
Post reply on HN