Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system • Hacker News Board

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#441

Post by icelancer » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 10:27 AM UTC

robinsoh wrote: post #411

icelancer wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> One thing I recommend to my hiring managers is to not allow people from frictioned backgrounds to manage and interview people from the other side. What? This is racist in and of itself and would be blatantly illegal for any number of reasons. Also the problem is not necessarily limited to Pakistani and Indians. It's Indians and Indians. Not sure what you want done there. I freely believe that the caste system of t…

> I freely believe that the caste system of the host country carries over to the United States, Until relatively recently, the United States has always had a very strong strictly enforced caste system, even written into law, still the case in some Southern states. Some people were even allowed to buy and sell other types of people! As we can see some people are still allowed to kill certain types of other people with…

Okay? That has nothing to do with my point. I am merely agreeing with the article's thrust that the Indian caste system probably carries over to the US, but despite that, discrimination on the basis of race for employment is strictly prohibitive due to protected class statuses.

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#442

Post by icelancer » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 10:30 AM UTC

graderjs wrote: post #299

throwaway_dcnt wrote: post #11

The reason for my current user name here at hn was this exact form of racism. It is the first post I made when I created this throwaway. I was assured that my experience was unique and not widespread. I am both sad and happy to see this, sad because it exists, happy because it is getting some attention here at HN. I would like to take this opportunity to point out that everyone of us needs to be vigilant about this t…

No this is so important. I agree that the reality of international and domestic generational conflict there we are mostly oblivious to in the West, should inform HR policy. These things are real, and discrimination based on them can be concealed and is often as the very fascinating article says, invisible to outsiders. I'm with you on the way to address this is by bringing more attention to it than with other comment…

That's all well and good, and the policy might indeed actually work. Unfortunately it's absolutely illegal. Protected classes are not protected from just racism, but discrimination of all forms.

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#443

Post by tomp » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 10:45 AM UTC

winternett wrote: post #325

icelancer wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> One thing I recommend to my hiring managers is to not allow people from frictioned backgrounds to manage and interview people from the other side. What? This is racist in and of itself and would be blatantly illegal for any number of reasons. Also the problem is not necessarily limited to Pakistani and Indians. It's Indians and Indians. Not sure what you want done there. I freely believe that the caste system of t…

One of the primary things these stories never truly elaborate properly on in the quest to establish social rank out of a caste-based society is that Black Americans, that were native to the US, and even for black migrants to India and other countries, are some of the most affected by caste politics of this kind in employment and work opportunity. Often having darker skin, Black Americans are even prone to more discri…

> Often having darker skin, Black Americans are even prone to more discrimination domestically. Any editorial that doesn't recognize that fact as a truth has no legs to stand on in my opinion.

Nigerian immigrants outperform most domestic US groups. So clearly "skin color" isn't the main factor (if at all).

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#444

Post by Aurelius3 » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 10:50 AM UTC

tomrod wrote: post #294

pansinghkoder wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or almost like a white man hiring another white man?

Misnomer. "White" isn't a culture. https://www.tiktok.com/@tizzyent/video/6881703506558848262?l...

I don't understand this perspective. Aren't European Americans similarly stripped of there European heritage as time goes on in the new world? Thus the word white in america means "of european origin living in america" the same way black means "of african origin living in america". I think it is really schizophrenic to say that black culture exists but white culture does not seeing as both terms represent a new world phenomenon of classifying cultures and groups by where they originated.

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#445

Post by tomp » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 10:54 AM UTC

jimmydddd wrote: post #182

aletzo wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but can you please elaborate a bit more on Greeks and Turks? I happen to be Greek and have worked with 2 Turkish colleagues without any issues. On top of that, during my many travels across Europe, Turks (along with other Balkan nationalities) are by far the most welcoming people I meet once they learn that I come from Greece and I befriended a few of them. Do you have any different experiences to share?

Ottomans (Turks) occupied Greece for 400 years, ending in 1821. Turkey constantly trying to take over Greek islands, etc. Turkey dropping off immigrants on rafts just outside Greek shores. But it doesn't seem to translate to the US much, especially in second generation.

That's quite far ago?

If that's your criteria, who can interview Germans without bias?

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#446

Post by saagarjha » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 11:27 AM UTC

random314 wrote: post #424

diebeforei485 wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Virtually all Brahmins proudly advertise their caste Nonsense. > and their caste is also obvious from their last name What exactly do you suggest be done about this?

I am calling you out for your fake story of Christians trying to figure out who is a brahmin by patting their backs. It is completely unnecessary as you can tell who is a brahmin from the last name. You just made up a fake story to play victim and transfer blame to Christians here and in several other comments. It is a well known fact that the primary form of caste discrimination occurs against lower castes by upper…

Hacker News is not a place for you to call people out for their "fake" stories, it's a place where you do your best to take comments in good faith. People have different experiences than you do, and yes, sometimes people will lie online. But that's no reason to immediately jump to accusations, and especially not here.

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#447

Post by zozbot234 » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 11:27 AM UTC

throwaway_281 wrote: post #434

zozbot234 wrote: post #14

It's so disappointing to see in the article that caste discrimination is still being blamed by some on the religion of Hinduism. There's no dharmic status whatsoever for "caste" in the commonplace sense. The Vedas occasionally talk about something that gets misinterpreted as caste, but it's very clear from the texts that they're talking about individual callings and aptitudes, and not any sort of immutable status. Th…

> There's no dharmic status whatsoever for "caste" in the commonplace sense I have read many verses from Manu Smriti, Parashara Smriti, and Yajnabalka Smriti. They are ripe with casteism. In Vedas, too, it is mentioned that Sudras are created from the feet of Purusha, and Brahmins from the head. And also, Mahabharata mentions that brahmins can't face capital punishment. The most that can be done is banishing them. In…

The varnas are not castes, they're social occupations, aptitudes or callings. They're very close to the Confucian idea of the "four categories of the people", or to the tripartite social division (First, Second and Third Estate) that's thought to be rooted ultimately in Indo-European belief systems, and is well known in the West. You might as well suggest that the modern "secular" Western idea of a "Fourth Estate" of influencers-intellectuals writing in the popular press (who definitely have "sacred cows" of their own, so ironically brought out in full display in this Wired article - while a tradition encompassing thousands of years is carelessly disparaged with such false and outrageous claims) is itself casteist.

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#448

Post by bradleyjg » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 11:28 AM UTC

nirav72 wrote: post #335

tomrod wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

High.

People that can pass of as white are more often of mixed heritage. Even then its really rare for them to be passable into the majority racial population. It all depends on their racial/ethnic composition. If one is half-latino/half-North African/levant and half-white, chances are they're going to be passable and most likely identify as white. Even the U.S census considers people from MENA as white. There are also whi…

If one is half-latino/half-North African/levant and half-white, chances are they're going to be passable and most likely identify as white.

What exactly is the difference between the old concept of “passing” and the new concept of “identifying as white” other than nomenclature?

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#449

Post by saagarjha » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 11:30 AM UTC

WheelsAtLarge wrote: post #291

This is very interesting. Here's a discrimination system that's completely invisible and in people's minds only. I'm sure that the highest caste has all the incentives to continue it. But I also feel that the lower caste continue it by their actions. They too feel that they are less because of the caste they were born into. Hiding is not the answer. By hiding, people signal that there is something to hide. I would ev…

> I'm sure that the highest caste has all the incentives to continue it. But I also feel that the lower caste continue it by their actions. They too feel that they are less because of the caste they were born into.

Well…not exactly. There's plenty of situations where being of a certain caste, whether it's high or low, can confer you no benefit and sometimes even a disadvantage. So besides the general thing of people generally trying to move away from discrimination, it's not necessarily a thing everyone wants to perpetuate.

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#450

Post by tallanvor » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 11:31 AM UTC

sanmon3186 wrote: post #372

dang wrote: post #8

Past related threads. I think there have been others. How Big Tech Is Importing India’s Caste Legacy to Silicon Valley - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26435117 - March 2021 (195 comments) Caste discrimination in some of Silicon Valley's richest tech companies - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24952698 - Oct 2020 (322 comments) How India's ancient caste system is ruining lives in Silicon Valley - https://n…

Every time such articles pop-up, I wonder what rock am I living under. In 22 years of experience (Half in US/UK and rest in India) in eight global organizations, not even a single time I heard or witnessed any cast based biases. What we regularly see is region/lingustic biases. Cast based discrimination exist in India, but in my experience the issue is overblown in the knowledge industry.

That's the thing with different types of discrimination - most of the time it's not done out in the open, and it's easy to allow yourself to not see it if you aren't being negatively affected.

You have a choice: you can assume you're correct that this is "overblown" and do nothing, or you can recognize that it clearly does happen (even if it really is rare) and make sure you're actively watching for it and reporting it when you see it.