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Hidetaka Miyazaki sees death as a feature, not a bug

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Re: Hidetaka Miyazaki sees death as a feature, not a bug

#71

Post by rcpt »

Talanes wrote: post #48
Trasmatta wrote: post #7

The popular discourse seems to focus on the difficulty of From's games, but that's just one part of the entire experience. FromSoft has a holistic approach to game design that very few other studios manage to match. There's just an incredible amount of depth to their world building, and the gameplay, difficulty level, online mechanics, level design, characters, music, story, and themes all work to reinforce and compl…

> I think FromSoft's games (and specifically the ones directed by Miyazaki) will be among a small set of games released in the past 20 years that will still be played and studied in 50 or 100 years (or more). I can definitely see this. Until this morning, Dark Souls had been the only FromSoft game I had played, mostly because I only managed Capra last year despite first playing around release. But I still boot it up…

> Very little of it is actually mechanically demanding.

Sekiro though

Re: Hidetaka Miyazaki sees death as a feature, not a bug

#72

Post by vlunkr »

Osmose wrote: post #34

I think Miyazaki's games are great and I enjoy them myself, but the continued (even in this article, somewhat) framing of accessibility features as ruining the artistic vision of hardship is a little disingenuous at this point. Many disabilities make games several times more difficult than they are for people without them, and a difficulty slider or increased stats help level the playing field so that the games can b…

I think the problem with a difficulty slider is that it puts lots of extra burden on the developer. Balancing difficulty is already tricky, and now you have to do it n times? And a newcomer to the series might choose "easy", which is not the intended experience for the average player.

My proposal is an "a la carte" difficulty instead, where you choose what mechanics you want to mess with. You could get unlimited estus or health, give yourself any item or any number of souls, freely adjust your level, etc. Basically cheat codes. That way you really choose your own difficulty. The whole game can be a cakewalk or can just skip one area that's giving you trouble. And honestly that would just be fun for everyone to mess with.

Re: Hidetaka Miyazaki sees death as a feature, not a bug

#73

Post by AmericanChopper »

lmm wrote: post #70
AmericanChopper wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of their games demand that you get better at the game mechanics as you progress through them, which is what you’re actually describing, but for some reason you think controlling your character in combat is something other than game mechanics? The fact that people have practiced these games enough that they can beat it with all sort of whacky interfaces doesn’t really prove anything.

By that definition, "getting good at game mechanics" is so broad as to be meaningless, and "need to be rather competent in their demanding mechanics" is no explanation at all.

The basic combat mechanics of FromSofts games are specifically blocking, parrying, rolling, stamina, and general movement, along with all the different forms of attacking, casting and item consumption. Most of the difficulty of FromSofts games comes from mastering these mechanics, and then learning every boss encounter individually.

To say the games are mechanically easy just seems like such a nonsensical take to me. Simple perhaps, but lots of simple things are especially difficult.

Re: Hidetaka Miyazaki sees death as a feature, not a bug

#74

Post by meheleventyone »

Talanes wrote: post #31
Trasmatta wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will say: I find these games to be extremely fun to watch (and a lot of others do as well, as they consistently get very high views on Twitch and YouTube), but maybe not so much if I wasn't already into playing them as well. I think the viewing experience is greatly improved by having a personal experience of the game itself, and the skill that goes into what you're watching. This is perhaps similar to watching a f…

Honestly, I think both Souls games and Street Fighter are very watchable for non-players. Both rely on a very strong link between animation and gameplay, which I find reads more intuitive than something like watching someone play a shooter I'm unfamiliar with.

I actually think the hit volume based damage in both makes this rather untrue. Both Souls games and SF have moves where damage happens completely incongruously to the animation. This is partly what makes both ‘hard’ because there is this piece of hidden knowledge that when you first encounter it seems really unfair because you get hit by attacks that look like they missed. It’s somewhat remedied in fighting games because they incorporate practice modes that expose all the hidden state.

Re: Hidetaka Miyazaki sees death as a feature, not a bug

#75

Post by lloda »

AmericanChopper wrote: post #67
marginalia_nu wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's in part this process of learning new encounters I'm talking about. In the beginning of Dark Souls, you can kill every enemy pretty much the same way. Then gradually you need to use more mechanics to get forward. Very little of it is actually mechanically demanding. What's demanded of you is that you observe and correctly assess the situation, that you recognize that what you are doing isn't working, and the solu…

All of their games demand that you get better at the game mechanics as you progress through them, which is what you’re actually describing, but for some reason you think controlling your character in combat is something other than game mechanics? The fact that people have practiced these games enough that they can beat it with all sort of whacky interfaces doesn’t really prove anything.

Get better as in knowing what to do, not so much about fast reactions or very precise timing of the controls, etc. Those help if you want to beat the games 'the hard way' but there are always easier ways. The gameplay is more about finding what those are, rather than banging your head against the wall trying the same approach over and over, which is a trap some players fall into.

Re: Hidetaka Miyazaki sees death as a feature, not a bug

#76

Post by calsy »

wyager wrote: post #14

I bought ER the other day after hearing rave review and was super disappointed. I ended up returning it after a couple hours. * Visuals: Disappointing. Looked like a cheap free-to-play MMO. Cheap-looking textures, stock-looking characters, bad rigging (e.g. characters holding things in unnatural poses), etc. * Controls: Unpleasant. Controls felt very sluggish. If this is supposed to make the game more challenging or…

Are we supposed to pretend you have any idea what you are talking about? Every point you made is stupendously wrong (bugs withstanding). It goes against the consensus of the overwhelming majority of players. Are they just suckers while you know the real truth? Please enlighten us with examples of games that make Elden Ring look like a first attempt at a Unity game.

Re: Hidetaka Miyazaki sees death as a feature, not a bug

#77

Post by AmericanChopper »

lloda wrote: post #75
AmericanChopper wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of their games demand that you get better at the game mechanics as you progress through them, which is what you’re actually describing, but for some reason you think controlling your character in combat is something other than game mechanics? The fact that people have practiced these games enough that they can beat it with all sort of whacky interfaces doesn’t really prove anything.

Get better as in knowing what to do, not so much about fast reactions or very precise timing of the controls, etc. Those help if you want to beat the games 'the hard way' but there are always easier ways. The gameplay is more about finding what those are, rather than banging your head against the wall trying the same approach over and over, which is a trap some players fall into.

> but there are always easier ways. The gameplay is more about finding what those are

Many FromSoft fans would not agree that this is what the gameplay is about. They’ve always put easy modes into their games, but the game designers really want you to just keep practicing until you get it.

Many of the boss encounters they’ve designed are also specifically about fast reaction times and precise timing of the controls. In the souls games recognising the enemies patterns are reacting quickly with precisely timed attacks and rolls is very important. In Sekiro the entire game is about precisely reacting to fast paced combat, especially if you’ve got chip damage enabled.

Re: Hidetaka Miyazaki sees death as a feature, not a bug

#78

Post by calsy »

wyager wrote: post #24
Trasmatta wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the visuals, FromSoft has always been a step behind from a graphical fidelity level. But they make up for it in art design, which is some of the best in the industry. Some of the areas in Elden Ring are legitimately jaw dropping. But the graphical fidelity is certainly nowhere near the level of something like Horizon (or even the Demon's Souls Remake, which was done by another team). For the controls, the game is…

> FromSoft has always been a step behind from a graphical fidelity level. But they make up for it in art design, which is some of the best in the industry. I'm not just talking about lack of rendering bells and whistles - I also thought the design itself was tacky, reminiscent of much lower-budget games like Valheim or those mid-2010s f2p Korean MMOs. Admittedly this is subjective. > For the controls, the game is all…

Lack of rendering 'bells and whistles'? That statement doesn't mean anything, what bells and whistles?

It looks like a mid-2010s f2p Korean MMO? what planet are you on.

I cant believe I replied to this nonsense.

Re: Hidetaka Miyazaki sees death as a feature, not a bug

#79

Post by AllegedAlec »

Osmose wrote: post #34

I think Miyazaki's games are great and I enjoy them myself, but the continued (even in this article, somewhat) framing of accessibility features as ruining the artistic vision of hardship is a little disingenuous at this point. Many disabilities make games several times more difficult than they are for people without them, and a difficulty slider or increased stats help level the playing field so that the games can b…

Yeah, that sucks for those people. I don't think framing it as a moral failure on Fromsoft's side is right though. It's an artistic decision, not a 'haha, go fuck yourself you armless twats' one.

Re: Hidetaka Miyazaki sees death as a feature, not a bug

#80

Post by Aissen »

What people seem to miss IMHO, is that this is "difficulty" thing is a time trade-off deeply ingrained in this type of game design. The frustration as you learn the rules of the game and try to improve this particular set of dexterity brings exhilarating satisfaction once you overcome the previously deemed impossible obstacles. But this also means that you need to have the time to plunge into this type of long-form challenge. And time is our most precious resource, so obviously this niche is not for everyone; especially in an era of infinitely available entertainment.
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