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Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

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Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#301

Post by graderjs »

avalys wrote: post #18
throwaway_dcnt wrote: post #11

The reason for my current user name here at hn was this exact form of racism. It is the first post I made when I created this throwaway. I was assured that my experience was unique and not widespread. I am both sad and happy to see this, sad because it exists, happy because it is getting some attention here at HN. I would like to take this opportunity to point out that everyone of us needs to be vigilant about this t…

The solution you propose is arguably just as bad and I suspect it might be illegal in the US. If I am a qualified manager or tech lead, and there is an opportunity to lead a new project, I would be furious to learn that I was passed over for the opportunity because someone believed I was ethnically incompatible with one of the people on the team.

Perhaps the law needs to be updated... Maybe the current state of US law reflects a misunderstanding or a lack of context on how important these things can be and Law's dynamic it evolves over time so it's not inconceivable that at some point these kind of considerations would be worked into law and policy somehow. And it's important to note that the legal issue is going to be a large inertial blocker for companies to consider this because of the risk aversiveness on hiring the funny thing is in trying to do the right thing by avoiding discrimination they may actually be enabling the perpetuation of it by not providing processes that are able to address bring attention to an and focus on some things like the article talks about. I'm no expert and we're not going to come up with a solution today I think but it's good to see discussion of this on hacker News I think. As sad as it also is that this is something that so greatly affects many people and it's clearly not the responsibility of a particular company or the tech industry to solve these social and international problems but I don't think that means there's nothing that could be done there to address them.

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#302

Post by mushyhammer »

icelancer wrote: post #185
throwaway_dcnt wrote: post #11

The reason for my current user name here at hn was this exact form of racism. It is the first post I made when I created this throwaway. I was assured that my experience was unique and not widespread. I am both sad and happy to see this, sad because it exists, happy because it is getting some attention here at HN. I would like to take this opportunity to point out that everyone of us needs to be vigilant about this t…

>> One thing I recommend to my hiring managers is to not allow people from frictioned backgrounds to manage and interview people from the other side. What? This is racist in and of itself and would be blatantly illegal for any number of reasons. Also the problem is not necessarily limited to Pakistani and Indians. It's Indians and Indians. Not sure what you want done there. I freely believe that the caste system of t…

> attempting to subvert that via "good" racist methods is not going to fly, especially if documented.

It would because it did and it does: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Steelworkers_v._Weber

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#303

Post by mtalantikite »

I think everyone should go read Ambedkar’s Annihilation of Caste, particularly Brahmins. It’s important for people of privilege to read his work, in the same way that it’s important for white people in the US to read Malcolm X’s autobiography. It will probably make you uncomfortable, but personal growth is often uncomfortable.

The Indian Ministry of the Exterior has his work up for free [1], but I’d suggest the printed US edition of Annihilation of Caste with Arundhati Roy‘s introductory essay.

[1] https://www.mea.gov.in/ambedkar.htm

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#304

Post by rayiner »

BurningFrog wrote: post #285
sumedh wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Indians and Pakistanis quickly understand that outside their native countries they are probably the same and almost have similar culture/language/food.

Another angle is that really nationalistic people don't tend to leave the country they love. I was happy to move to the US in part because I was pretty tired if my home country.

Under-appreciated point about immigrants. My parents left Bangladesh because they weren’t huge fans of Bangladesh or Bangladeshis.

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#305

Post by int_19h »

berdario wrote: post #258
kbelder wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They both are explicitly sexist. Hard to define that away. Maybe it's not bad; but it's sexist. Just as it would be racist if the criteria was making sure one of the interviewers was of specific race or nationality.

That's your opinion, most people probably disagree. A common way to define racism is: negative prejudice + power (The same can be done for sexism, though obviously on different characteristics) From that point of view, making sure that a marginalized candidate is also interviewed by at least one member of the same marginalized community, if possible, is neither racist nor sexist. (Because you're not negatively discri…

It really isn't a common way to define it. The colloquial definition of racism is still racial prejudice, regardless of power. This is also the way it was used historically - both W.E.B. DuBois and MLK referred to "black racists", for example. It was redefined to "... + power" after the Civil Rights Era, but it didn't really catch up outside of the more academic social justice circles.

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#306

Post by unmole »

I have no trouble believing that people carry their casteist prejudices to Silicon Valley or that they act out their casteism in vile ways.

But when I read stuff that is so clearly nonsensical, I start questioning what embellishment factor I should I account for.

> Questions about a person’s last name or home village can be seen as invasive attempts to identify caste. A pat on the shoulder might be a friendly greeting—or a search for a sacred thread that some dominant-caste Hindu men wear beneath their shirts.

There is simply no way to figure out someone's caste by their home village. The overwhelming majority of Hindu men from dominant castes do not wear a sacred thread. If someone believes that a pat on the shoulder might be checking for a caste marker, it's very likely that they'll be seeing caste discrimination where none exists.

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#307

Post by unmole »

zxienin wrote: post #67

I am from “upper caste”. My experience might not be commonly heard perspective. In 10th grade of schooling, my parents changed my lastname to avoid that folks figure out the caste. Due to affirmative action (aka reservation) on steroids, upper caste were losing opportunities. My parents wanted to avoid that I lose out on selection, promotions.., where subjective discretion was involved. I do not recall ever seeing ca…

> I am from “upper caste”. My experience might not be commonly heard perspective. In 10th grade of schooling, my parents changed my lastname to avoid that folks figure out the caste. Due to affirmative action (aka reservation) on steroids, upper caste were losing opportunities. My parents wanted to avoid that I lose out on selection, promotions.., where subjective discretion was involved.

I'm sorry but this makes no sense to me whatsoever. Reservations in India follow a formal documented process and do not apply to private enterprises. Changing one's surname will make zero difference.

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#308

Post by amznbyebyebye »

asdadfaadsadf wrote: post #254
zxienin wrote: post #67

I am from “upper caste”. My experience might not be commonly heard perspective. In 10th grade of schooling, my parents changed my lastname to avoid that folks figure out the caste. Due to affirmative action (aka reservation) on steroids, upper caste were losing opportunities. My parents wanted to avoid that I lose out on selection, promotions.., where subjective discretion was involved. I do not recall ever seeing ca…

I grew up in urban India and my experience with caste system is the same, never really experienced discrimination personally but I know of it being widely prevalent in the country. This scene from an Indian movie I saw recently made me realize that the caste system is not just prevalent and absurd but also has a very complicated hierarchy built into it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4N98tQsp64 (<2 min, with subtit…

Great suggestion

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#310

Post by mushyhammer »

thowaway_2mar wrote: post #231
random314 wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In India dalits are about 20%. In Silicon valley, I would be surprised if they are more than 2%. India is like 3 different countries when sliced by caste. The highest castes are about as privileged as the typical Chinese. The middle are at sub saharan Africa levels. The bottom 25% constitute probably the most deprived population in the world. Better off than the Rohingyas but not by too much. "Jay Bhim" is a great mo…

^ typical Chinese Is it not racist?

No.
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