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Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

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Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#61

Post by gerdesj »

birdyrooster wrote: post #24

A bit off topic but, separate from Indian culture, the United States has a hidden caste system too that flows from antiquity and is given texture through American slavery. If your family was a slave or you look like a slave you are, unconscious in the minds of most, systemically bottom caste here. Sorry if it is an unsatisfying critique of America but its obvious. Go look at the wealth data, look who is thriving and…

This is waaaay off topic.

Carry down that line of thought and you might fall into all sorts of nonsense. Note things like Pope Gregory (n?) saw a pair of slaves in a market in Rome in the n00s. These two were picked up from somewhere that would eventually become part of England/GB. He was told they were Angles. The story goes he quipped that they were "surely Angels" due to their physique and long blonde hair. Part of England is known as Anglia still and of course England itself is "Angleland".

It seems a bit odd that, that anecdote and play on words survives a good 1500 years during which time English has gone through three major stages (old/middle/modern). However you can easily posit from that story that Britons were also enslaved, if you very carefully define "Briton"!

Anyway, my point is that you can't really use terms like american slavery. History can't be stuffed into boxes like that with pejorative terms scattered like confetti.

The caste system being discussed here is nominally an indian sub continent thing and way older in origin than the slavery employed around C17th onwards with the horrendous triangle of trade.

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#62

Post by belval »

lisper wrote: post #10
Bhilai wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of stuff mentioned in the article is true. I would even go ahead (at peril being downvoted by Indian patriots) that India is a deeply racist country. My parents, educated upper middle class working folks use to 'educate' me to not get married outside our caste and such. Caste system is deeply rooted in India and you can pretty much read about it from lots of sources online. India has a lot of right provisions (…

It would never even occur to me to ask someone what caste they were from, not just in Silicon Valley where I happen to live, but anywhere in the U.S. Seriously, who does that?

Someone who doesn't understand that it's taboo and is curious of a system that existed for 3000 years? I understand that it's a painful heritage for some but to an outsider this seems akin to genealogy for example.

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#63

Post by akvadrako »

sparky_ wrote: post #52
johntiger1 wrote: post #31

as a complete outsider to the caste system, say i was american-born or otherwise "white-washed". would I still be subject to this system?

Fellow outsider here. Got curious and did some searching; would love to hear from some real Indian folks to confirm or deny this line of reasoning. As non-Indians, it seems we exist outside the system, which could be ambiguously interpreted to either have no connotation at all, or to exist at the bottom of the social strata. [1] Anecdotally, the kind of treatment you'll get in practice depends a lot more on your race…

So, assuming there is a hierarchy and Indian are not better than all other races, it seems the conclusion must be all societies have some kind of caste system, it's just we don't see it since we don't look for that sort of thing?

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#64

Post by camtarn »

pinephoneguy wrote: post #45
12ian34 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm Indian born with British nationality and I look Indian. It doesn't bother me if people ask me where I'm from - I am often curious about where others are from. It does, however, start to slightly grate if upon me responding with "I'm British", I am quizzed further with "But... where are you really from?" I hear this less nowadays, but it used to be common enough to "slightly grate", particularly from older, Caucas…

Obviously your ancestors aren't British so there's something to the "where are you really from" question. I've been asked similar things even as a White American.

It has rather different connotations in Britain.

As far as I understand it from Americans I know, quite a few people in the US have a fascination with where their, and others', ancestors came from, so it could be a fairly innocuous question. Pretty much any American I know would happily rattle off an answer of 'oh, I'm half Irish, a quarter French, and a quarter Spanish' or something similar.

Here in the UK, even though we're also a nation of immigrants and invaders throughout history, there is much more of an attitude of 'people whose ancestors have always been here' ('British') versus 'immigrants' ('not really British') - even if the 'immigrants' are from families who have also been here for generations.

So yeah. Generally 'but where are you really from?' means something a little like 'I don't believe that you're one of us people who have always been here'. Whether that's malicious or just naive depends on the person, but I can imagine it gets pretty tiring.

(I'm the son of a Chinese immigrant, but due to my other parent being Scottish I pass for white and thus I've never actually been asked the question!)

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#65

Post by User23 »

pinephoneguy wrote: post #45
12ian34 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm Indian born with British nationality and I look Indian. It doesn't bother me if people ask me where I'm from - I am often curious about where others are from. It does, however, start to slightly grate if upon me responding with "I'm British", I am quizzed further with "But... where are you really from?" I hear this less nowadays, but it used to be common enough to "slightly grate", particularly from older, Caucas…

Obviously your ancestors aren't British so there's something to the "where are you really from" question. I've been asked similar things even as a White American.

Ancestry is pretty common small talk for White Americans.

I like learning more about people and the world so I like to ask people about where they’re from. The immigrants I’ve spoken to are proud of their heritage and don’t take offense. I have noticed though that their descendants can take offense, perhaps because they take it as implying they’re somehow inauthentic. All that’s required is a little delicacy. Instead of asking “where are you really from” instead ask something like “it sounds like your family has a really interesting story, would you like to tell me about it?”

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#66

Post by belval »

wincy wrote: post #23
Bhilai wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of stuff mentioned in the article is true. I would even go ahead (at peril being downvoted by Indian patriots) that India is a deeply racist country. My parents, educated upper middle class working folks use to 'educate' me to not get married outside our caste and such. Caste system is deeply rooted in India and you can pretty much read about it from lots of sources online. India has a lot of right provisions (…

Okay so curious, I have a South Indian neighbor who is Muslim. I assume Muslims are just a different thing outside of the caste system, despite people saying caste is not rooted in Hinduism? (I’m not saying it is, just curious how an Indian might view their Muslim neighbors).

Seems to exist for Indian muslims as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_among_South_Asian...

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#67

Post by zxienin »

I am from “upper caste”. My experience might not be commonly heard perspective. In 10th grade of schooling, my parents changed my lastname to avoid that folks figure out the caste. Due to affirmative action (aka reservation) on steroids, upper caste were losing opportunities. My parents wanted to avoid that I lose out on selection, promotions.., where subjective discretion was involved.

I do not recall ever seeing casteism at workplace. So reading these reports have been surprising to me, since these are not subtle, but rampant. I can only attribute it to my privilege driven echo chamber. Or the fact that I never worked in US. (only briefly in India).

What I read in media disgusts me. I am very motivated to make sure nothing like this happens in my zone of control / influence, at work.

I know casteism is deeply rooted in Indian society. I do not relate with it. Many folks I know, don’t either. On optimistic side, I hope that means with newer generations, casteism will dilute and wither away.

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#68

Post by gerdesj »

Sebguer wrote: post #46
johntiger1 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

from my understanding, the caste system is thousands of years old (in fact one of the reason islam was welcomed and later sikh religion developed). are you sure that american slavery was the origin?

They're not implying that the Indian caste system originated in American slavery, they're stating that America also has a caste system.

Perhaps class system is a better term. The terms nearly mean the same thing but not quite. I think the caste system is closer in origin to the societal structure in the feudal system that was common in medieval Europe, than the modern class system.

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#69

Post by jewayne »

simmanian wrote: post #50
franklampard wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Chinese and Japanese When I interviewed last time; the only company i did not make through phone screen was by a Japanese interviewer. I gave a three viable solutions to an easy question. Had no idea why I failed but probably because of racism

It's definitely possible that there were other factors in play. I hope you see the danger or irony of automatically assuming that the Japanese interviewer rejected you because of their racial bias.

I hope you see the danger or irony of stigmatizing the discussion of bias.

Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system

#70

Post by Bhilai »

fdgsdfogijq wrote: post #47

In a well known big tech company (FAANG), I have seen many many examples of a whole layer of management from the same caste. So like under one director, every senior manager will have been from the same part of India. Sometimes this will extend to another layer of managers below them. Behind the scenes, there is a strong communication network that is often not caught or shown in org charts. This will include high ran…

Let me guess, its Amazon?
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