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"How much does a website cost?" – a survey of web designers

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Re: "How much does a website cost?" – a survey of web designers

#101

Post by danssig »

mtogo wrote: post #33
sambeau wrote: post #26

When freelancing I tend to work a simple system. £250: An update to content - an evening or two's work. £500: A tiny static site with some original design. I then slide upwards for jobs I don't want and down for people I like. I've never gone above £5000 for a 'homer'. I also have a mate-rates scale that appears below this: Free: Family. Charities I like. Updates + tiny static. Bottle of Wine: As above but close fami…

Whoa dude, $392.10 for you to just change content on a site ? Set up a CMS and let the client change it themselves.

If clients are paying this price then it sounds like his pricing is correct.

Re: "How much does a website cost?" – a survey of web designers

#102

Post by danssig »

armandososa wrote: post #70

Fuck. This is my reaction every time I realize how underpriced I was for all my consulting career. I charged $600 top for building websites, including logo and backend most of the time. I think I was good, just very clueless.

Well, the important thing is to learn and adjust. Remember; if you are good but underpricing you are not just hurting yourself. Your potentially hurting every local person in the same space by decreasing the value of those services.

Re: "How much does a website cost?" – a survey of web designers

#103

Post by ChrisLTD »

geuis wrote: post #72
ChrisLTD wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a little much to say design is the "least" important part of a site. Good design can instill potential users/customers with confidence, ease the sign-up or purchasing process, and give the site a personality.

I've yet to see where a design that's shiny and pretty is more important than a site that is plain yet fast and functional. I'll add an addendum that usability is more important than pretty . The combination of both is, unfortunately, rare.

You're right to say that fast and functional is preferable to pretty, but both are examples of 'design' in the truest sense.

Good design really isn't about making things pretty, it's about enablind the user or customer. Usability is goal number one.

Re: "How much does a website cost?" – a survey of web designers

#105

Post by jtheory »

wetbrain wrote: post #99
nobleach wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I came here to say basically the EXACT same thing... even including the "my nephew can make websites" remark. My method is to try to figure that out VERY early in my discussions with a potential client, and then quote them a "scare off price" whereby they'll likely say no, but IF they say yes, the extra money will make it worthwhile as I KNOW they'll be asking for tons of changes. (Can't you just open Dreamweaver and…

Yeah, I hate "my nephew can make websites". I don't doubt that a high school student could put together a full website, with a store front or whatever else. But I'd be willing to bet it's not the most secure. I'm sure there's something like this, but there should be a kind of Angie's list for clients to blacklist the delinquent ones. If not I'm making one. EDIT: There's always the better business bureau, but it's not…

The "my nephew can make websites" comment is not necessarily what people seem to think it is.

After all, this is someone who has gone to the trouble of getting in touch with a professional and asking questions. They aren't asking their nephew to do it.

They know it's going to be more expensive, but they didn't realize HOW MUCH more expensive, and that comment is simply part of how they learn why that's the case.

They generally honestly don't understand why it's so expensive -- because they don't yet understand what they're buying (it's non-obvious!) -- so the best route is to keep the tone pleasant ("ha! yup, I get that question a lot") and educate them in a friendly way.

The end result may be that they decide they won't want a professional website -- that's fine. Part of the discussion should be how likely it is that the site will earn them back more than they're paying for it. I have a neighbor that wanted to hire me to build a website for her small-scale manufacturing business, and through our discussions we basically figured out that it wasn't going to be a good investment for her right now. That was a win-win situation, in my book.

Re: "How much does a website cost?" – a survey of web designers

#106

Post by jtheory »

reason wrote: post #34

What do you guys get out of your smart-ass answers to potential clients? You do know that they come to you because they know that you are the professionals. Many of them are completely clueless as to how pricing works for dev/design-work. Asking "how much do you charge?" is a perfectly reasonable question for someone understandably uninformed to ask. You may be skilled at your trade, but from the sounds of it, many o…

It's useful to try to put yourself in the place of the customer. They're trying to negotiate the purchase of something they don't understand, that apparently can be accomplished by 14-year-olds, and that somehow costs $8K -- what!? That's close to what I paid for my car, a complex piece of machinery with computers inside it and thousands of engineered parts that actually move!

Do you see how this feels? They're pretty reasonably scared of being ripped off. After all, if you went off for 2 weeks and on the last day just copied some other site's design and changed the names... how would they know?

Re: "How much does a website cost?" – a survey of web designers

#107

Post by dotBen »

HeyLaughingBoy wrote: post #95
dotBen wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they press, explain why. No, as a business person you just walk away. They're clearly not a prospect (ie, in the market to buy your services) because they've indicated a budget that is degrees of magnitude to yours. One of the wonderful traits of being a geek is the desire to explain and the desire to engage in debate. Digg/Reddit/HN are built on it. An important trait of a successful business person is to zero in…

Um, no! Someone isn't disqualified as a potential customer simply because they don't know how much something costs or assume it costs X when it costs 10X. A good customer understands value. That means that if they thought something costs $500 but it really will cost $10k, they'll be able to identify if it's worth $10k to them, or instead find out what they can get for the $2k that they can actually afford. Just sayin…

So I work in a niche consulting area (helping companies build out developer platforms). I like to earn the most money I can, so I tend to only work with public companies, large corporations, etc because they can afford to pay the most.

Startups approach me all the time, given that I'm quite well connected in the startup scene from my other activities here in SF. But they can't afford to pay me what BigCorps will pay me. There's no point in me telling them the value I can provide and doing the dance because the bottom line is they usually don't have the kind of funding to make it feasible.

And for me, there isn't the equivalent of "well this is what I can do for $500" - I charge by the day and you either pay my rate or you don't. Fortunately I have enough business that will.

Re: "How much does a website cost?" – a survey of web designers

#108

Post by wetbrain »

jtheory wrote: post #105
wetbrain wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I hate "my nephew can make websites". I don't doubt that a high school student could put together a full website, with a store front or whatever else. But I'd be willing to bet it's not the most secure. I'm sure there's something like this, but there should be a kind of Angie's list for clients to blacklist the delinquent ones. If not I'm making one. EDIT: There's always the better business bureau, but it's not…

The "my nephew can make websites" comment is not necessarily what people seem to think it is. After all, this is someone who has gone to the trouble of getting in touch with a professional and asking questions. They aren't asking their nephew to do it. They know it's going to be more expensive, but they didn't realize HOW MUCH more expensive, and that comment is simply part of how they learn why that's the case. They…

I'd call that a win-win as well.

I do take the same approach and try to explain why it's more expensive, they tend to use the 'nephew' excuse to haggle down by a significant amount (A couple hundred for a medium sized site, think school/PTA/church, tree depth > 2, 10+ pages). But my problem is finding a resolution. (This is a short version, I'm usually more friendly about it)

Client: I know someone who will do it for free. You should therefore do it for cheap.

Dev: This is a large project. (Explain expense).

Client: Then I'll just use my free resource.

Dev: Do that.

Client: But I want you to do it.

Dev: Well, this is a large project. (Explain expense).

Rinse and repeat...

There's a gap with some of them that I have trouble explaining. I'm not in competition with whoever you know. Just because they can do it for free doesn't change what I'll charge, which is pretty reasonable and on the low side. I'll hear from other, actual freelancers (I' a student, so I'm part-time) about the same client calling around and getting the same response. Anecdotally, it takes 4-5 conversations for them to understand that the rate is between $1000 and $7000 depending how large/dynamic it needs to be. Whoever the last person is get the job, or makes a referral.

Re: "How much does a website cost?" – a survey of web designers

#109

Post by thenomad »

ChrisLTD wrote: post #63
geuis wrote: post #50

I really take issue with this: "All prices are for design only, i.e. they don’t include any sort of coding (no HTML, no CSS, no Javascript, no PHP, etc.)". I'm sorry, but a design is only a tiny, tiny fraction of a website. Usually it's the most minor and inconsequential part. I've lost count of how many clients thought their apparently simple designs can built for a toothpick and olive. Coding the HTML, CSS, javascr…

It's a little much to say design is the "least" important part of a site. Good design can instill potential users/customers with confidence, ease the sign-up or purchasing process, and give the site a personality.

From practical experience using sites as a selling tool, a 20% faster load time won't change my sales figures. Something that's significantly higher production value in look, implying a more successful company, will.

Re: "How much does a website cost?" – a survey of web designers

#110

Post by thenomad »

thenomad wrote: post #109
ChrisLTD wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a little much to say design is the "least" important part of a site. Good design can instill potential users/customers with confidence, ease the sign-up or purchasing process, and give the site a personality.

From practical experience using sites as a selling tool, a 20% faster load time won't change my sales figures. Something that's significantly higher production value in look, implying a more successful company, will.

Replying to myself here... Of course, it depends on the original load time. Changing the load time from 2.5 sec to 2sec - not that useful for a sales page. Changing the load time from 25sec to 20sec - well, there's a lot more work to be done, but that WILL have an impact on sales.
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