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Tell HN: If You Are in Russia

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Re: Tell HN: If You Are in Russia

#41

Post by sudosysgen »

randomsearch wrote: post #31
namecheapTA wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

This is whataboutism and it is so tired. A good propaganda tactic though, and the Russians are using it as an attack vector. Westerners seem really vulnerable to this form of propaganda, possibly due to the success of previous information warfare led by Russia. Bringing up some other terrible thing for comparison does not change in any way whatsoever the severity of what is happening in Ukraine. Whataboutism propagan…

This is not whataboutism and it is so tired. It's about the fact that this isn't about the human suffering caused by Russia, it's a conflict between major power - case in point, all of the previous instances of similar behaviour from multiple countries that went unpunished.

When evidence fly in the face of a narrative, whataboutism isn't a defense. Whataboutism would be if they said it's fine for Putin to commit atrocities in Ukraine because the US commits atrocities in various countries. That's not what was pointed out. It was pointed out that the narrative doesn't follow past precedent.

Re: Tell HN: If You Are in Russia

#42

Post by gattilorenz »

randomsearch wrote: post #31
namecheapTA wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

This is whataboutism and it is so tired. A good propaganda tactic though, and the Russians are using it as an attack vector. Westerners seem really vulnerable to this form of propaganda, possibly due to the success of previous information warfare led by Russia. Bringing up some other terrible thing for comparison does not change in any way whatsoever the severity of what is happening in Ukraine. Whataboutism propagan…

This is not whataboutism. I am in favor of strong sanctions again Russia, but saying that "Russian companies paid for death and destruction in Ukraine. I feel no empathy. This country should pay for every war crime they committed. There are no innocence in war. Silent complacency what brought it on." is blatantly false, and it becomes apparent when you reverse the narrative. Are all American companies responsible for/complacent with US war crimes?

Not all Russian companies wanted the war, not all companies are complacent, and they only financed it by contributing to the GDP of the country.

Is it fair to sanction them? No. Should we do it if it helps destabilizing Putin? Yes, absolutely, even more than we are doing now.

Re: Tell HN: If You Are in Russia

#43

Post by darebak »

randomsearch wrote: post #31
namecheapTA wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

This is whataboutism and it is so tired. A good propaganda tactic though, and the Russians are using it as an attack vector. Westerners seem really vulnerable to this form of propaganda, possibly due to the success of previous information warfare led by Russia. Bringing up some other terrible thing for comparison does not change in any way whatsoever the severity of what is happening in Ukraine. Whataboutism propagan…

But it is not whataboutism when you are comparing two comparable things. You can't call any inconvinient information whataboutism...

Re: Tell HN: If You Are in Russia

#44

Post by sudosysgen »

gnull wrote: post #11

As a side question, how similar is Putin's war in Ukraine to the numerous wars started by U.S. (say, in the middle East, Yugoslavia)? Are these fair to compare? I'm trying to understand the scale of Putin's decision, not to justify it or engage in whataboutism.

Yes, US invasions are comparable, and quite similar. Putin's decision is of scale because Russia isn't a hegemon and is threatening an international order where it's only okay for the US and its allies to do it to countries whose habitants are considered less human.

Re: Tell HN: If You Are in Russia

#45

Post by sudosysgen »

marcell wrote: post #14
gnull wrote: post #11

As a side question, how similar is Putin's war in Ukraine to the numerous wars started by U.S. (say, in the middle East, Yugoslavia)? Are these fair to compare? I'm trying to understand the scale of Putin's decision, not to justify it or engage in whataboutism.

Putin launched a war against Ukraine in order to conquer it the traditional sense, ie to replace the existing government with his own government. The long term goal is for Russia to control this country's government. The wars started by the US typically have the goal of establishing a democratic government. Japan is an example of a successful outcome. Iraq has a functioning democracy now. This policy is often critici…

The US replaced the governments of multiple countries with its puppets, see Afghanistan.

Try to tell me with a straight face that the previous Afghan government was democratic and represented the will of the Afghan people. You cannot.

Iraq's democracy is about as successful as Russia's, that is, not at all.

The US installed a dictatorship in South Korea, and overthrew or contributed in the overthrow of many more.

Re: Tell HN: If You Are in Russia

#46

Post by hans_castorp »

namecheapTA wrote: post #23
Svoka wrote: post #19

[flagged]

Quoted post unavailable.

A crime committed by one party, doesn't justify a crime committed by another party

There is absolutely no justification what Putin (NOT "the Russians" mind you) is doing right now.

But to answer your question: yes, I do feel that about US companies as well, and I have avoided them (or services offered by them) where ever possible in the last two decades. But sadly it's way easier to avoid Russian services, than US services.

Re: Tell HN: If You Are in Russia

#47

Post by randomsearch »

gnull wrote: post #11

As a side question, how similar is Putin's war in Ukraine to the numerous wars started by U.S. (say, in the middle East, Yugoslavia)? Are these fair to compare? I'm trying to understand the scale of Putin's decision, not to justify it or engage in whataboutism.

Well, intervention in Yugoslavia wasn’t a war started by the US.

The Kuwait war was after an invasion by Iraq and at the invitation of the government there, and the US were restrained enough to halt at the Iraq border.

The Syrian war was not started by the US, and it has played a minor part there. In fact, it is Russia that has indiscriminately bombed Syrian cities and targeted civilians and hospitals there.

Afghanistan was in response to 9/11 and the refusal of the Taliban to end their protection of a terrorist organisation that had repeatedly attacked American targets internationally before their deliberate targeted murder of thousands of American civilians. This does not seem comparable to Ukraine.

The Iraq war stands out for me as the unjustified and imperialist war of modern times. It seems to me that the atmosphere post 9/11 was used as a pretence. But even Iraq does seem different: Hussein was a brutal dictator and, at least initially, Americans were welcomed as liberators. In Ukraine we are seeing widespread civilian resistance to the invasion. But Blair and Bush should answer for their war crimes.

By far the biggest difference here, I think, is that by being a European war and through the potential for further conflict and nuclear conflict, this war has far larger international ramifications and strategic risks attached to it. To see European cities bombed is to be reminded of what has happened in the past and that it can happen again. That is why it is receiving so much attention.

Re: Tell HN: If You Are in Russia

#48

Post by darebak »

readthenotes1 wrote: post #21
gnull wrote: post #11

As a side question, how similar is Putin's war in Ukraine to the numerous wars started by U.S. (say, in the middle East, Yugoslavia)? Are these fair to compare? I'm trying to understand the scale of Putin's decision, not to justify it or engage in whataboutism.

A big difference is that by and large, Ukraine has won the narrative. There are no "Ukrainian artillery: go fuck yourself" stories. There's also no barely veiled threats by the US that we would nuke Iraq or Afghanistan etc. nor drop the ISS on them.

Ukraine has won the narrative in the West because Western countries wanted it that way, it's actually pretty easy to do when you cut out opposing propaganda.

Re: Tell HN: If You Are in Russia

#49

Post by hans_castorp »

MrDisposable wrote: post #37
gnull wrote: post #11

As a side question, how similar is Putin's war in Ukraine to the numerous wars started by U.S. (say, in the middle East, Yugoslavia)? Are these fair to compare? I'm trying to understand the scale of Putin's decision, not to justify it or engage in whataboutism.

> I'm trying to understand the scale of Putin's decision Drastic. Catastrophic. Suicidal. World-changing. The country (Russia) in its current form has just ceased to exist. The entire parasitic elite class just got cut off from everything they stole during all these years. The entire human potential of Russia just got nullified for at lest 20 years. The push towards green energy (and I hope nuclear fusion) just got a…

> It's we Russians who are fucked for the rest of our lives.

I sure hope, you know who to thank for that.

Re: Tell HN: If You Are in Russia

#50

Post by darebak »

watwut wrote: post #18
gnull wrote: post #11

As a side question, how similar is Putin's war in Ukraine to the numerous wars started by U.S. (say, in the middle East, Yugoslavia)? Are these fair to compare? I'm trying to understand the scale of Putin's decision, not to justify it or engage in whataboutism.

Fair to compare in what terms? I think that in this case, multiple nato members think this makes Russia direct threat to them. You know, Poland is possibly next, because Russia always wants Poland. Eastern Germany used to be under Russian control too, what it means to Germans? Estonia probably sees themselves as target too. All satelite previously occupied by Russia republics. Russia is expanding again toward Europe…

There is nothing suggesting that Russia is interested in anything other than Ukraine and everything else is just fear mongering.
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