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Visa, Mastercard block Russian financial institutions after sanctions

reuters.com

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Re: Visa, Mastercard block Russian financial institutions after sanctions

#11

Post by j16sdiz »

avalys wrote: post #7
donw wrote: post #5

sigh Fifty years ago, the dollar had value because America was the one-stop-shop for everything. Cars, electronics, appliances, all of it. Nowadays, that's China. China makes everything, or the parts to make everything, and increasingly to a higher standard than can be produced in the US. Go watch Project Farm and think on those results. The dollar has value now because it functions as a medium of exchange. That's it…

All valid points, but...using military force to seize control of another sovereign, democratic nation also undermines the entire economic system. I don't see this as driven by the US government and as something that will be held against the USD, it is just as much motivated by the Europeans and the Euro. The point of these sanctions is to say - a country is not allowed the benefits of integration with the global econ…

> a country is not allowed the benefits of integration with the global economy if they are willing to use military force against it.

Instead of hurting just Russia, this is literally hurting every country.

I really hope we can do something good for everybody, but my fallible mind has its limit.

Re: Visa, Mastercard block Russian financial institutions after sanctions

#12

Post by ido »

zxcvbn4038 wrote: post #8

Not only does Russia have its own financial interchange system but they have their own credit card network as well. Visa and MasterCard were forced to integrate with them early on in order to get a toe hold in the country. This will do more to hurt MasterCard then Moscow. Hindsight being perfect, one of the worst blunders the US ever made was turning their backs when the Soviet Union collapsed. That was their one cha…

I think this is a naive reading of historic events. The US didn't "open pizza huts" but collaborated vigorously and enthusiastically in the looting of Soviet state assets post-collapse.

Re: Visa, Mastercard block Russian financial institutions after sanctions

#13

Post by timeon »

demadog wrote: post #6
karamanolev wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True. That part is beyond what's required by law, right? It also promised to contribute a $2 million for humanitarian relief.

That’s the equivalent of me giving $2

And number you gave is?

Re: Visa, Mastercard block Russian financial institutions after sanctions

#14

Post by llamataboot »

donw wrote: post #5

sigh Fifty years ago, the dollar had value because America was the one-stop-shop for everything. Cars, electronics, appliances, all of it. Nowadays, that's China. China makes everything, or the parts to make everything, and increasingly to a higher standard than can be produced in the US. Go watch Project Farm and think on those results. The dollar has value now because it functions as a medium of exchange. That's it…

I mean arguably I'd want a country that cares more about human rights in the world than it's own currency on an open market, without even saying that this is what the US is doing here.

But the US also couldn't act unilaterally in these sanctions so I'm not sure that comes into play so much

Re: Visa, Mastercard block Russian financial institutions after sanctions

#15

Post by tyrfing »

donw wrote: post #5

sigh Fifty years ago, the dollar had value because America was the one-stop-shop for everything. Cars, electronics, appliances, all of it. Nowadays, that's China. China makes everything, or the parts to make everything, and increasingly to a higher standard than can be produced in the US. Go watch Project Farm and think on those results. The dollar has value now because it functions as a medium of exchange. That's it…

You mean SPFS and CIPS?

It's not like everyone woke up this week and realized these economic levers exist. Look at Huawei, the EUV blockade, Russia using gas for politics, etc. SWIFT is a relatively weaker lever in that the US is not able to unilaterally impose this, it took EU signing off - and pre-war, this wasn't a very likely outcome.

Assuming dollar hegemony forever without using it as a weapon also isn't very truthful. With the rise of China that you point out and with the decline over long timescales of oil, it's going to wane in importance without more levers like silicon.

Re: Visa, Mastercard block Russian financial institutions after sanctions

#16

Post by lambdasquirrel »

donw wrote: post #5

sigh Fifty years ago, the dollar had value because America was the one-stop-shop for everything. Cars, electronics, appliances, all of it. Nowadays, that's China. China makes everything, or the parts to make everything, and increasingly to a higher standard than can be produced in the US. Go watch Project Farm and think on those results. The dollar has value now because it functions as a medium of exchange. That's it…

I don't agree with the analysis here, through and through.

Russia may buy things from China, but they need to sell energy and goods to Europe. In particular, it is difficult for Russia to send a good chunk of their energy output to China. Energy is a bulk good, and thus sensitive to transport costs.

China and Russia are not liberal economies. A side effect of that is that their own markets do not offer enough liquidity to support an alternative exchange medium. It really is as simple as that. China has advanced in strides, but it will take true liberalization before it can wield economic weapons on a global scale. Its society will need to mature more before that happens, and then it will be a different day.

I'm not going to rah-rah let's beat Russia – or China – those are nationalistic attitudes I won't partake in. At the same time, I really am very negatively against this war, and just as much, I believe the systems should be impartial as they can be. With all that said, your analysis simply does not hold weight, and given the European consensus behind blocking the Russian government from SWIFT, I don't think the legitimacy or effectiveness of that system is significantly compromised either, for all practical purposes.

Re: Visa, Mastercard block Russian financial institutions after sanctions

#17

Post by scyzoryk_xyz »

zxcvbn4038 wrote: post #8

Not only does Russia have its own financial interchange system but they have their own credit card network as well. Visa and MasterCard were forced to integrate with them early on in order to get a toe hold in the country. This will do more to hurt MasterCard then Moscow. Hindsight being perfect, one of the worst blunders the US ever made was turning their backs when the Soviet Union collapsed. That was their one cha…

This, imho is eerily similar to the mistake of punishing Germany ruthlessly at the end of WWI, which basically created the perfect underlying conditions for Nazis and WWII.

Re: Visa, Mastercard block Russian financial institutions after sanctions

#18

Post by rib3ye »

donw wrote: post #5

sigh Fifty years ago, the dollar had value because America was the one-stop-shop for everything. Cars, electronics, appliances, all of it. Nowadays, that's China. China makes everything, or the parts to make everything, and increasingly to a higher standard than can be produced in the US. Go watch Project Farm and think on those results. The dollar has value now because it functions as a medium of exchange. That's it…

I see this "Chinese production + Russian... (I guess just oil) = superior economic system" argument before, but I suspect these people have never opened a history book on Sino-Soviet relations. Because of decades of undermining and backstabbing, the trust between these two societies is pretty close to zero despite "communism". The only thing they really have in common is that they are both autocratic governments, so not exactly beacons of stability and cooperation. So the USD doesn't doesn't have to be the best, just the least worst.

Re: Visa, Mastercard block Russian financial institutions after sanctions

#19

Post by rib3ye »

scyzoryk_xyz wrote: post #17
zxcvbn4038 wrote: post #8

Not only does Russia have its own financial interchange system but they have their own credit card network as well. Visa and MasterCard were forced to integrate with them early on in order to get a toe hold in the country. This will do more to hurt MasterCard then Moscow. Hindsight being perfect, one of the worst blunders the US ever made was turning their backs when the Soviet Union collapsed. That was their one cha…

This, imho is eerily similar to the mistake of punishing Germany ruthlessly at the end of WWI, which basically created the perfect underlying conditions for Nazis and WWII.

Show me the treaty where Russia was required to pay back crippling reparations.
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