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I want to pay for TextMate 2

marco.org

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Re: I want to pay for TextMate 2

#211

Post by burgerbrain »

phillmv wrote: post #188
burgerbrain wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) "discover new functionality" is a "learn", not a "use". 2) Vim can have menus too if you want them, and a mouse to go with them... 3) I learn new things about vim all the time without reading the documentation. A massive community makes that quite easy.

>1) "discover new functionality" is a "learn", not a "use". I'm talking about application usability. When I say something is hard to "use" I roughly mean "how easy it is to pick up" and "how easy it is to use everyday". It's a sign of poor application design when you have to learn it instead of merely using it. After six years of regular vim use I still find myself constantly forgetting key shortcuts and which featur…

1) "It's a sign of poor application design when you have to learn it instead of merely using it."

No, what this actually is a sign of is disingenuous arguing. I have conceded that vim is harder to learn. What I do not concede is that it is otherwise hard to use. You understand what I am saying, but being purposely difficult.

2) If vim's menus were to cover everything vim can do, then we would have ourselves a usability issue. That menu system would be absurdly deep (which is really just an argument in favor of vim if you think about it critically).

3) Blogs are not "technical documentation", which is what you said. Not to mention that any developer in the world should be able to use compat mode without reading anything. The rest of vim's feature set is large enough that it will require some type of research to uncover, no matter the presentation. Textmate can avoid this by having a dramatically smaller feature set.

Re: I want to pay for TextMate 2

#212

Post by FuzzyDunlop »

zekel wrote: post #208
FuzzyDunlop wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This logic fails if it's not a universal agreement. When it's not, you're just paying money for an expectation that may never materialise. One might call it gambling.

Or supporting a worthy cause.

This doesn't even rate on my list of worthy causes. The developer of TextMate got paid when I bought a license for that software. He runs/owns a business running for profit and he has the means and expertise to make that. And indeed he will if he gets a second version out.

There are countless NPOs and registered charities that require donations and spend the money on running wholly unprofitable services to people who have no way of paying the organisation back. Services that, as a result, would not exist (and be actively avoided if they did) if left to the free market.

They deserve whatever money you're willing to throw away a hell of a lot more than a developer who has trouble keeping his shit in order.

Re: I want to pay for TextMate 2

#213

Post by adambyrtek »

spooneybarger wrote: post #116
adambyrtek wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really claim that existing commercial IDEs are so much better than Eclipse?

I use eclipse every day and would never defend it against almost any disparagement.

I don't particularly love Eclipse, but I just don't agree that the commercial alternatives are so much better. Which IDE would you recommend yourself?

Re: I want to pay for TextMate 2

#214

Post by phillmv »

burgerbrain wrote: post #209
phillmv wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'll report you to the BBB, file a law suit against you and pre up a class action law suit to rape you into bankruptcy and make sure no one will ever do business with you again. No, you won't, because unless you're a lawyer even thinking about it for too long will be more expensive than the license in the first place. This happens a LOT. Your client doesn't pay within 90 days. Do you automatically sue them? No. Do y…

You break a license? Yeah, I'm probably not going to go to court with you. "break your contract" ? Arbitrary contract? Unless we're talking trivial sized businesses here, there is a non-trivial chance that I will take you to court over that. Oh yeah, and it is my impression that going to the BBB is free, so you can be sure I'll be doing that regardless.

You're probably not going to sue someone for under $30,000 and yet I wouldn't call that a trivial size of business.

Re: I want to pay for TextMate 2

#215

Post by phillmv »

burgerbrain wrote: post #211
phillmv wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>1) "discover new functionality" is a "learn", not a "use". I'm talking about application usability. When I say something is hard to "use" I roughly mean "how easy it is to pick up" and "how easy it is to use everyday". It's a sign of poor application design when you have to learn it instead of merely using it. After six years of regular vim use I still find myself constantly forgetting key shortcuts and which featur…

1) "It's a sign of poor application design when you have to learn it instead of merely using it." No, what this actually is a sign of is disingenuous arguing. I have conceded that vim is harder to learn. What I do not concede is that it is otherwise hard to use. You understand what I am saying, but being purposely difficult. 2) If vim's menus were to cover everything vim can do, then we would have ourselves a usabili…

1) It's just been my experience, when designing and discussing user interfaces, to include "how discoverable" an application is as a factor to how "usable" they are.

A LOT OF FEATURES that experts can use does not necessarily make something usable.

If this falls outside of the purview of what you consider to be satisfactory, that's fine by me.

2) Not really. You'd have a few context menus, and maybe an inspector window might be necessary. Obviously you're not going to represent all of the keyshortcuts but there is no good reason why I can't right click on a split and reorganize it relative to my other buffers. Or select text and hide it using whatever feature "zf" is called. Etc, etc.

Maybe I have an extremely dim of the full, non plugin augmented, vim featureset but… I think it would be possible.

3) Now you're the one splitting hairs. A blog post covering a specific vim key combo… is documentation of a technical sort. C'mon now. Few people are reading that to relax after work.

>The rest of vim's feature set is large enough that it will require some type of research to uncover

I disagree with this. I mean, if you want to compete at vimgolf, of course you need to know the internals inside and out. But there ought to be no reason why I need to memorize five commands off the bat just to split a window. Or set a macro. Or blah blah blah blah.

Re: I want to pay for TextMate 2

#216

Post by phillmv »

burgerbrain wrote: post #210
phillmv wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shit happens, man. I can't predict the future, can you? Sometimes you fuck up. If you own up to your mistakes, and they were reasonable mistakes, why shouldn't you be forgiven?

Part of actually owning up to your mistakes is accepting the consequences gracefully. He shouldn't have made the promise in the first place, but now that he has the only responsible thing to do is to fulfill that. He can say it was a bad idea, and ask for donations if he wants, but he shouldn't go back on his word. His fuckup, he's the one that has to deal with the consequences.

>Part of actually owning up to your mistakes is accepting the consequences gracefully.

The consequence is going bankrupt or not going bankrupt.

>His fuckup, he's the one that has to deal with the consequences.

I honestly don't understand how this gets people so riled up. Sure, you have the right to your own opinion.

I'd get it if it cost $600. If you're a professional developer in North America though, $60 is a damn pittance.

Re: I want to pay for TextMate 2

#217

Post by burgerbrain »

phillmv wrote: post #216
burgerbrain wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of actually owning up to your mistakes is accepting the consequences gracefully. He shouldn't have made the promise in the first place, but now that he has the only responsible thing to do is to fulfill that. He can say it was a bad idea, and ask for donations if he wants, but he shouldn't go back on his word. His fuckup, he's the one that has to deal with the consequences.

>Part of actually owning up to your mistakes is accepting the consequences gracefully. The consequence is going bankrupt or not going bankrupt. >His fuckup, he's the one that has to deal with the consequences. I honestly don't understand how this gets people so riled up. Sure, you have the right to your own opinion. I'd get it if it cost $600. If you're a professional developer in North America though, $60 is a damn…

You are confused, the price has nothing to do with it. (although it is of course absurd for a text editor).

Re: I want to pay for TextMate 2

#218

Post by burgerbrain »

phillmv wrote: post #214
burgerbrain wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You break a license? Yeah, I'm probably not going to go to court with you. "break your contract" ? Arbitrary contract? Unless we're talking trivial sized businesses here, there is a non-trivial chance that I will take you to court over that. Oh yeah, and it is my impression that going to the BBB is free, so you can be sure I'll be doing that regardless.

You're probably not going to sue someone for under $30,000 and yet I wouldn't call that a trivial size of business.

30000 is some minor construction work. Yeah, I would call that fairly trivial.

Re: I want to pay for TextMate 2

#219

Post by BenSS »

octover wrote: post #180
tptacek wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The simplest distillation of what Marco is saying may be: Allan Odgaard built a great product but made a calamitous mistake in pricing it relative to the effort he ended up putting into it. Marco has been auditioning text editors for several months now, and has come to the conclusion that he is happiest with Textmate. Marco would strongly prefer to help Odgaard fix his pricing mistake over the option of having to swi…

Does Allan have a pricing mistake for Marco to fix? I haven't heard anywhere that it is a real impediment to TM2. Even in the list message from Allan, he mentions that maybe it was a mistake, but money wasn't his primary motivation. If Allan is smart he'll look at the Sophiestication blow up regarding CoverSutra 2.5 being a paid upgrade. I think that would be about the worst thing that could happen to his motivation…

He could simply be honest that he's expending a lot more effort on v2 to make it as awesome as he wants it to be. Charge the full price, but offer a refund or full price rebate if you show that you bought v1.

Re: I want to pay for TextMate 2

#220

Post by spooneybarger »

adambyrtek wrote: post #213
spooneybarger wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use eclipse every day and would never defend it against almost any disparagement.

I don't particularly love Eclipse, but I just don't agree that the commercial alternatives are so much better. Which IDE would you recommend yourself?

For java development? I don't have a recommendation really. I've tried Intelli-j and I think it is def. better but at least for my workflow at the paying job, eclipse's notion of project works out much better.
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