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Germany mulls extending nuclear plants' life-span

reuters.com

161–170 of 170 posts

Re: Germany mulls extending nuclear plants' life-span

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding numbers like CO2 emission per MW that is definitely true. However, the highly destructive, scary and dangerous trash that it does produce is like a comical epitome of the kind of visible pollution the first generation green movement was fighting. There is a reason that dystopian sci-fi trash heap illustrations always feature a leaking nuclear barrel. Combined with the fact that Germany is just (fairly) dens…

The entirely of the nuclear waste produced by the United States since the beginning of its atomic program could fit in a couple of olympic sized swimming pools. And water does such a good job of stopping the radiation that is actually a pretty good way of storing it. And that's without considering fuel reprocessing, which would not only drastically reduce the raw fuel need (and therefore increase the green value of n…

> The entirely of the nuclear waste produced by the United States since the beginning of its atomic program could fit in a couple of olympic sized swimming pools.

Hanford alone has enough liquid nuclear waste to fill 80. Does that waste not count?

Re: Germany mulls extending nuclear plants' life-span

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> nuclear was not economically viable vs going green This is such a strange statement as nuclear is the greenest power source.

Regarding numbers like CO2 emission per MW that is definitely true. However, the highly destructive, scary and dangerous trash that it does produce is like a comical epitome of the kind of visible pollution the first generation green movement was fighting. There is a reason that dystopian sci-fi trash heap illustrations always feature a leaking nuclear barrel. Combined with the fact that Germany is just (fairly) dens…

> criticism of storage solutions are not about endangered desert lizard species, but about radiation spikes in elementary school

Note that storage solution for radioactive waste is necessary even without nuclear reactors, as there are plenty of radiocative waste from radiology/radiotherapy devices and also associated accidents, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goi%C3%A2nia_accident .

Re: Germany mulls extending nuclear plants' life-span

#164
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't produce any power until 10 years after you secure the money, usually costs much more than budgeted, and then has very high operating cost. Each euro earmarked for a nuke plant is a euro not spent building out solar, wind, and storage that would yield much more power than the nuke, almost immediately, and have extremely low operating cost. So, not green, because it competes with actually green for capital.

That is largely because due to green lobbyists making sure that nuclear is subjected to greater regulatory oversight and financial barriers than other sources of energy. I'm sorry that I'm not that familiar with the German regulatory situation, but here in the USA for example new nuclear plants are required to pre-fund their decommissioning costs upfront before they are ever turned on, and have insurance against acci…

No. Nuclear is inherently expensive.

It is expensive because any large unit of capital in a public works context is expensive. (A clear majority of this cost is in unavoidable structural corruption tax.) On top of that, operating a nuke is very expensive: this is where fuel cycle costs come in, including mining, refining, processing, and disposing, as well as others like fixing turbines and guarding access. On top of that, shutting one down is expensive. None of these costs are falling, while alternative cost are, so, relatively, they are all sharply increasing.

(Coal, oil, and gas are also expensive, mainly in environmental effects, and their costs are also increasing, relative to renewables. They do not count here, except in how they contribute to renewables construction cost, where they fall as their contribution to that cost does.)

Insurance for construction accidents, and disposal costs, are figured in: silicon panels and wind turbine blades are inert, so cheap to dispose of. CdTe panels and rare-earth magnets are valuable, already-refined chemicals, and are reclaimed.

Each cost alone makes nukes more expensive than alternatives. All added up, they make nukes ruinously expensive.

Re: Germany mulls extending nuclear plants' life-span

#165
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entirely of the nuclear waste produced by the United States since the beginning of its atomic program could fit in a couple of olympic sized swimming pools. And water does such a good job of stopping the radiation that is actually a pretty good way of storing it. And that's without considering fuel reprocessing, which would not only drastically reduce the raw fuel need (and therefore increase the green value of n…

> The entirely of the nuclear waste produced by the United States since the beginning of its atomic program could fit in a couple of olympic sized swimming pools. Hanford alone has enough liquid nuclear waste to fill 80. Does that waste not count?

I meant from the civil power program, not weapons development.

Re: Germany mulls extending nuclear plants' life-span

#167
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's worth pointing out (again) that Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Station is older than Chernobyl Nuclear Power Station. It's not at all surprising that they would both fail in much the same manner, even in the face of promises that newer reactors can't.

It did not, in fact, fail the same manner, except insofar as it melted down as every failed reactor did.

They failed in much the same manner being the incompetence of their management.

In Chernobyl's case, it was inadequate training of their staff for a test procedure (including various side effects that this test procedure might cause) and some overrides of safety systems (in gross violation of existing regulations).

In Fukushima Daiichi's case, it was management ignoring the very real risk of tsunamis, even in the face of plenty of evidence that the station was vulnerable to such (a handful of other stations around the world had been damaged by tsunamis in the preceding dozen or so years, and only fared much better because of more redundancies in their emergency systems).

Re: Germany mulls extending nuclear plants' life-span

#168
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We still have not found a place to store the waste. No one wants to live near a reactor so there are not really any place to build them (NIMBY). It also turns out that it is quite expensive when considering all costs like dismantling and insurance. Germany also does not mine uranium any more since 2021, so needs to buy them from other countries so you will have again dependencies on other countries. And then there is…

The historical experience of Chernobyl is not remotely relevant to modern reactors that are (by design) unable to melt down. Look at the pebble bed reactors, or the smr reactors from nuscale, or the chinese molten salt reactor designs. These are all using new technology to make meltdown next to or completely impossible. Nuscale is calling their smr reactors "walk away safe" in that you could just abandon them and the…

> The historical experience of Chernobyl is not remotely relevant to modern reactors that are (by design) unable to melt down. Look at the pebble bed reactors, or the smr reactors from nuscale, or the chinese molten salt reactor designs.

The problem is these modern reactors you mention, the ones that do actually exist in the real world and are not just designs, are not really all that modern. Consider every nuclear power reactor ever brought online, ever. Nearly all of them were built awhile ago and are of the early design where if the plant loses power, yada yada yada, when the batteries run dry, the plant is at risk of meltdown. Towards the end of the nuclear boom, changes in design were implemented, and some plants were built in the US that won't break that way... and this was idk like 50 years ago.

The US and UK development of fission power was a very Big Investment, and I think they did a good job because they ferreted out the least expensive method of generating power with a nuclear reaction, which unfortunately for nuclear power, not only because of the relatively recent (last 20 years) much much much much much smaller investments (compared to US&UK investment in developing nuclear power) in renewable energies like solar and wind, electricity generated in the cheapest possible way from a nuclear reaction can not complete any longer in the energy market (and in fact never could, nuclear was always too expensive, but for a while didn't matter [1]), and this is before we take into account the skyrocketing prices of uranium or the cost of long term storage of waste, and this of course is all long before investors ever show up that want to build and run one of the much newer reactor designs that can't melt down and also produce less waste, because those are even more expensive to build than the old designs that make up nearly all of Earth's global fleet of nuclear reactors, which can melt down and btw they are, all of them, at waste storage capacity... for more than 20 years (iow, their "temporary" waste storage is more or less overflowing with nuclear waste, and has been for quite awhile).

We need to solve nuclear power, but this isn't rushing to build new plants, it is instead biting the bullet to tie off the loose ends of all the damn messes already made with nuclear power, which are considerable but not impossible to fix and keep fixed.

Nuclear power isn't dead. Someone could come up with a damn cheap, safe and much simper design, and when that day comes, we'll all have our own little nuclear reactors, and it will be a great day.

[1] The US, for a brief period, needed fuel for nuclear bombs. Someone somewhere vastly overestimated this need, and in this overestimation, there was a lot of money available to build nuclear power plants, and a lot of them... err... all of them... in consideration of how crazy expensive nuclear power just is and always was... that's how and why they got built — and not because some visionaries thought that nuclear power would solve the energy needs of the country. IOW the reason we have the nuclear power plants that we do in the US is because of the vastly mindbogglingly huge overestimation of the need for fuel for nuclear bombs. Many think you can never have enough ammo, but please trust that we have far more than enough now, the nuclear bomb fuel factories aren't doing well, economically speaking, having effectively lost their major client, the US military, who themselves will, btw, continue to build and operate fission nuclear reactors indefinitely, regardless of expense for valid reasons.

Re: Germany mulls extending nuclear plants' life-span

#169
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It did not, in fact, fail the same manner, except insofar as it melted down as every failed reactor did.

They failed in much the same manner being the incompetence of their management. In Chernobyl's case, it was inadequate training of their staff for a test procedure (including various side effects that this test procedure might cause) and some overrides of safety systems (in gross violation of existing regulations). In Fukushima Daiichi's case, it was management ignoring the very real risk of tsunamis, even in the fac…

OK, I'll buy that. Disaster as a consequence of incompetent operation is a failure mode common to all nukes that other systems don't have.

Re: Germany mulls extending nuclear plants' life-span

#170
post #127
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla is putting significant new investment into their energy business. Since they now have almost every major battery manufacturer globally doing business with them, they can shift to the less automotive grade chemistry for their stationary energy storage (power packs and mega packs). Elon’s literal words mention this: https://www.utilitydive.com/news/musk-vows-to-accelerate-tes...

Just because they will start using LFP for stationary storage doesn't mean they also won't consume all of the LFP capacity for cars and starve out stationary storage again. They already used LFP for all the China built M3s and started shipping those same M3s to non-Chinese markets. Right now all signs point to this continuing. Margins on cars are much better, right now cell supply is so constrained but demand for Tes…

Hey, I'm just parroting what the literal CEO of Tesla said, but you're fully entitled to your own opinion.
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