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Caltech's CS interview prep course

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Re: Caltech's CS interview prep course

#121
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We tried that once. https://ncees.org/engineering/pe/software/ But nobody was interested. https://ncees.org/ncees-discontinuing-pe-software-engineerin... --- I've interviewed software developers who have on their resume "Oracle Java 8 certified", but aren't able to name three different spots where the static keyword appears in Java or the situations where they'd be used. There are certainly many possible reasons why…

This is a test on software engineering, not computer science.

I would contend that it makes it more applicable to the general "what do you do professionally" for most people outside of academia.

Re: Caltech's CS interview prep course

#122
Interviewing is broken.

When I was at Amazon, it became impossible to hire candidates, and generally the engineers we brought on board were non-US citizens. Typically they're Indians without U.S. residency status, often times U.S. college grads or often even transfers from Amazon's Indian offices. Not only did we pay below other FAANGs, but with these hires, we'd pay them at the low end of our own scale.

What are they going to do? Quit? Ha! If they quit, they have to leave the country. So most of them just suck it up. Many of them had spouses and children. Quitting Amazon meant they'd have to uproot their entire family.

A second order effect the entire industry on how to work around Amazon (and other big tech's) styling of interviewing. What amazes me are all the Youtube channels from Amazon engineers and other big tech companies with this "influencer" persona.

At the end of the day, many of these kids at Amazon are doing shitty migration projects, shoveling legacy code around all day, and dealing with on-call hell.

But we have this entire cult of working in big tech and going through all these gymnastics to get through pointless interviews.

Perhaps Google, Netflix, etc. are much better places to work, but it boggles my mind anyone would invest so much energy in getting a job at Amazon. It's absolutely a shit place to work that doesn't treat people like human beings.

Re: Caltech's CS interview prep course

#123
post #40

My career path in tech so far has been junior engineer -> mid level -> senior -> tech lead. As I've progressed through that path, I have had literally no opportunities of applying the stuff I've learnt on HackerRank, save for a couple of interviews. At this point I'm convinced that the focus of those interviews was entirely wrong. Once you pass those tests and get hired, you will be dealing with tons of legacy code r…

What’s your suggested alternative? Please remember that while some of us would do well and prefer some live pair programming or debugging sessions, it stresses the hell out of some folks and penalizes them unfairly. Take home tests penalizes people with families and other responsibilities and probably has a racial bias as well in countries where different races have different societal loads. In the end, even if these…

> What’s your suggested alternative?

In my experience, any alternative to leetcode provides a better signal-to-noise ratio. You are better off asking trivia questions.

Additionally, this is the common narrative among leetcode advocates - "If no leetcode, then what?" As a hiring manager, you think harder and do better, that's what.

> Please remember that while some of us would do well and prefer some live pair programming or debugging sessions, it stresses the hell out of some folks and penalizes them unfairly.

So does leetcode. And a candidate that is truly a good fit for the role would be more at ease with the interview than if they saw a leetcode question they haven't seen before.

> Take home tests penalizes people with families and other responsibilities...

So does studying for leetcode for hours.

> ...and probably has a racial bias as well in countries where different races have different societal loads.

Share some sources before making a claim this ridiculous.

> In the end, even if these coding challenges might not reflect the actual work you do, they might still be predictive of success in the job, as much as any other method can be when we look for unbiased markers.

In my 6-ish years of experience, this is false. I have actually tested this theory in practice, and through my anecdotal experience, leetcode is a poor signal for job performance.

I can usually usually accurately screen a candidate for success in about 45 mins. And, unlike leetcode, you can't pretend like you haven't seen the question before, bc I can push the candidate to their limit, which is where you will find hire / no-hire signals. I love talking about this stuff, but I find that my peers engineering peers do not give a shit and would prefer to stay in leetcode hell.

Re: Caltech's CS interview prep course

#124
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not anymore! Blind auditions are now a thing of the past: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/16/arts/music/blind-audition... However, since you can't choose your parents or where you were born, there's little you can do to prepare for the Diversity, Inclusion, and Equity goals. (I could probably get a lift by changing my religion. People with the exact same ethnicity and appearance as me but of a different faith are con…

That article is behind the NYT paywall but the bit of it I could see appears to be saying not that > blind auditions are now a thing of the past but that they should become a thing of the past, so that orchestras can ensure that their makeup (race, gender, etc.) matches that of "the communities they serve". There's a big difference between "one person writing in the New York Times thinks orchestras should stop doing…

Unlocked - https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/16/arts/music/blind-audition...

Re: Caltech's CS interview prep course

#125
post #40

My career path in tech so far has been junior engineer -> mid level -> senior -> tech lead. As I've progressed through that path, I have had literally no opportunities of applying the stuff I've learnt on HackerRank, save for a couple of interviews. At this point I'm convinced that the focus of those interviews was entirely wrong. Once you pass those tests and get hired, you will be dealing with tons of legacy code r…

Bingo. It should be telling that there are a number of, usually for-profit, resources for prepping for just the interview process: * leetcode * Cracking the Coding Interview * Elements of Programing Interviews * Interview Kickstart, which costs like $5500, is a bootcamp just for passing interviews * educative.io * algoexpert.io That being said, I might just play along with the DS / Algo interview game. Having an inte…

The hiring rigmarole is just an IQ test in disguise.

The only downside, you can prep for IQ tests, and spend unlimited time doing the prep.

If only someone would come up with a way to control for how long they prepped for this: one week on hackerrank, or 2 years of courses.

I bet those that learn the rigmarole faster, will also pickup k8s and other such fairly ephemeral trivia rather quickly as well.

Re: Caltech's CS interview prep course

#126
post #40

My career path in tech so far has been junior engineer -> mid level -> senior -> tech lead. As I've progressed through that path, I have had literally no opportunities of applying the stuff I've learnt on HackerRank, save for a couple of interviews. At this point I'm convinced that the focus of those interviews was entirely wrong. Once you pass those tests and get hired, you will be dealing with tons of legacy code r…

I totally agree with you. Some of the content there seems relevant to CS in general, but I hate the fact that you need to study content that you won't use on the job in order to pass an interview. It doesn't make sense to me. I've seen new grads perform as well as senior engineers with these Leetcode-style questions so I've stopped using them to assess engineers. Further, I know we're specifically trying to assess technical ability in an interview, but that's not the whole picture for an engineer. They need to be able to take feedback well and provide good mentorship also. I think we miss this.

Inspired by some realistic interviews that I did recently, I've been working on something[1] that aims to equip companies to hire engineers using realistic assessment methods. It scales like Hackerrank, but I think it's fairer.

[1] https://devscreen.io/

Re: Caltech's CS interview prep course

#127
post #3

If you don't think modern interviewing practices are a problem, this should be proof enough. Not only do we have an entire programming book sub-genre dedicated to this nonsense, but now we're also wasting class time on memorizing sorting algorithms. Fantastic. Of course, we're going to see the inevitable arguments that "40% of the people I interview lie on resumes" or "I interviewed this guy once, and he couldn't eve…

> I've told at least 5 or 6 companies that wanted to white-board me to suck it. It's honestly insulting that I'm forced to white-board when I have two books with my name on them (published by Apress), contributions to Golang (small commits, but they still got me in the AUTHORS file), and OSS projects with hundreds of stars on GitHub That is all commendable but none of that tells me if I can work with you. When I inte…

> I have never understood the hostility toward whiteboarding

Maybe you haven't been blown off and treated like an idiot by some interviewer when you couldn't answer their pet question? Even when you're more experienced and skilled than they were?

Re: Caltech's CS interview prep course

#128
post #3

If you don't think modern interviewing practices are a problem, this should be proof enough. Not only do we have an entire programming book sub-genre dedicated to this nonsense, but now we're also wasting class time on memorizing sorting algorithms. Fantastic. Of course, we're going to see the inevitable arguments that "40% of the people I interview lie on resumes" or "I interviewed this guy once, and he couldn't eve…

The class is being taught in the Computer Science department, not the software engineering or programming department. I think the bigger issue is the conflation of CS and SWE. To your point about how you interview, unless there is an alternative I would never be able to apply to your company. I have no open source contributions or code samples to share and no interest in writing a book. I also have no interest in app…

> without a commensurate investment of time on their part

Doesn't grinding LeetCode apply here as well?

Re: Caltech's CS interview prep course

#129

So wait you are smart enough to get into caltech, smart enough to graduate with a degree in CS. And yet the curriculum on its own does not do a good job enough on its own to prepare you for getting a job? Very hard to graduate with a decent GPA in CS at caltech and not be able to thrive as an entry level engineer. If you got B’s in caltech CS I’d make you an offer for 200k+ without blinking or even asking you anythin…

>If you got B’s in caltech CS I’d make you an offer for 200k+ without blinking or even asking you anything.

thanks, it means a lot you trust my ability so much :)

>All have PhDs and yet they’re all facing delays when landing a job. There is something definitely broken.

Everyone agrees it's the leetcode interview format. I agree to some extent, but I wouldn't throw it out completely. For me, I give four problems, and the candidate must solve two of the four with full internet access in an hour. It seriously reduces interview day variation for good candidates. If they can't do graphs but can do text formatting, they get a pass. I'm sure there's still some better way of doing this.

Re: Caltech's CS interview prep course

#130
post #40

My career path in tech so far has been junior engineer -> mid level -> senior -> tech lead. As I've progressed through that path, I have had literally no opportunities of applying the stuff I've learnt on HackerRank, save for a couple of interviews. At this point I'm convinced that the focus of those interviews was entirely wrong. Once you pass those tests and get hired, you will be dealing with tons of legacy code r…

The reason this complaint never changes anything, despite being very popular, is that these interviews serve two purposes that it doesn’t address: 1) they’re an intelligence test; 2) they’re a perseverance/conscientiousness test. Will you take the time and put in the work to pass one of these interviews? That measures perseverance and conscientiousness. Having put in the time, can you recall and adapt what you learne…

I really think you nailed it, will have to borrow this point in the future.

A lot of it is about gauging the candidates aptitude, and of course their willingness to put in the work.

It's like those kids in math class that say, "I'm never going to use this in real life."

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