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EU to Ban RT and Sputnik

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Re: EU to Ban RT and Sputnik

#41

Post by LittleGecko »

belter wrote: post #31
tablespoon wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That is crossing a line. In free societies we shoild be able to hear different sides. RT and Sputnik aren't "sides" in a democratic debate. They are propaganda outlets participating in bad faith with a goal to undermine those societies that have those debates.

True. But it's not up to Mrs Von der Leyen to decide that, otherwise during the next elections, I will not...oh wait...

Last time, when I voted for the 2005 referendum on EU Constitution, I voted yes and it happened. You just vote the wrong way.

Re: EU to Ban RT and Sputnik

#42

Post by coenhyde »

a0-prw wrote: post #34

I regularly read RT and occasionally Sputnik. I also read the opposing views held by Western media like Economist, FT, Independent, etc. RT are always careful to acknowledge opposing viewpoints. For example, in all articles on the war, so far, they say "Moscow claims ..." and "Kiev claims ..." Censorship happens when the authorities are afraid of the viewpoints of their opponents. So the EU is afraid of allowing Russ…

This isn't about censorship. It's about an economic embargo.

Re: EU to Ban RT and Sputnik

#43

Post by yrgulation »

robbedpeter wrote: post #23
yrgulation wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excellent - I use moscowtimes.ru for news from within russia. Not sure how reliable it is, but i've read an article which if google translate works fine, it would appear there is dissent among their forces. Also the russian ministry of defense has openly spoke, in russia, about russian losses: more than 3200 dead. That's half the losses Russian had in 8 years of the Second Chechen War. Looks like Ukraine is winning a…

Ukraine is losing 1 for every 20 Russians killed so far. Putin's strategical prowess is surprisingly terrible.

As i said before. The russian army is nukes and propaganda. Look at how well its propaganda works even here on hm - some defend these weapons of war, rt and sputnik, as freedom of speech. However i do dead non government owned russian papers using google translate for intel, and the news are slowly trickling in.

I tuned in to radio sputnik once and there were americans speaking some very disturbing anti american crap. It was the most weird comedy i listened to until i realised they are dead serious. Propaganda is a weapon.

Re: EU to Ban RT and Sputnik

#44

Post by guiriduro »

screye wrote: post #27
tablespoon wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That is crossing a line. In free societies we shoild be able to hear different sides. RT and Sputnik aren't "sides" in a democratic debate. They are propaganda outlets participating in bad faith with a goal to undermine those societies that have those debates.

When all outlets are propaganda outlets, the only way to ensure information from both sides is to let them all scream. I, like most HNers support Ukraine's bid for survival in this war. But, the sheer magnitude and spread of pro-Ukraine and anti-Russia propaganda would even embarrass the director of Rocky 4.

Yep, I remember a war that was clearly decided in advance but maintained a pretence of negotiability, on a bed of lies and manufactured fear of WMDs, supported in general by a compliant media with plenty of military embeds, glee over "shock and awe" and dropping of a lot more ordinance, and an almost complete absence of reporting of the victims of it. That war was Iraq.

Nothing forgives Putin for what he's doing, or the laughable propaganda it rests on and Russian media promulgation of the same, but let's not pretend our media aren't also dancing to a political tune, filtering, ignoring, misrepresenting. And precisely because we claim to live in a free society we should hold our media to higher standards of independence, verifiability and circumspection.

Re: EU to Ban RT and Sputnik

#45

Post by rsynnott »

tsol wrote: post #32
tablespoon wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That is crossing a line. In free societies we shoild be able to hear different sides. RT and Sputnik aren't "sides" in a democratic debate. They are propaganda outlets participating in bad faith with a goal to undermine those societies that have those debates.

So who decides what a propaganda outlet is? Some was fox news is one. Some say MSNBC is propaganda. And some say all major news channels allow the narrative to be shifted by outside powers, and therefore qualify as propaganda

Well, Fox and MSNBC aren't owned by a hostile foreign government, so there's that.

Re: EU to Ban RT and Sputnik

#46

Post by belter »

LittleGecko wrote: post #41
belter wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True. But it's not up to Mrs Von der Leyen to decide that, otherwise during the next elections, I will not...oh wait...

Last time, when I voted for the 2005 referendum on EU Constitution, I voted yes and it happened. You just vote the wrong way.

Which one:-)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Dutch_European_Constituti...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_French_European_Constitut...

Re: EU to Ban RT and Sputnik

#47

Post by pqb »

xiphias2 wrote: post #28
pqb wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not the type of "side". It spreads misinformation on huge scale. Those sites can be compared to some fantasy book not real news.

I don’t think it’s so simple. I bought Bitcoin in 2013 because of Max Keiser on RT explaining its importance (and talking about the scams going on Wall Street, like silver price manipulation that Goldman Sachs was later fined for), while all the western media wrote that it will collapse to $0, and right now it gives me a comfortable life. It’s controversial here on HN whether it’s a good or bad thing, but at this poi…

I can't speak about those two things, because I didn't find them interesting when they came out into daylight. I am against the next meetoo-like cancellation wave, but actually RT/Sputnik has done more bad than good in the last years. If they would not exist I believe other journalists will take care of those topics. There were others who spoke about manipulation in cryptocurrency world and it is not that we have only one news outlet, which is taking a look at gov/banking/corporations/... hands.

As a person living in Poland, where state-sponsored media fights with opposition using a cheap propaganda, I know the RT is doing journalist job wrong, because the scheme is exactly the same. Real news mixed with fake ones or hugely skewed. The reader/watcher starts believing he gets the truth, while he got a pulp of a nonsense. I compare it to a typical slot machine algorithm (i.e. "you always win") [1]. News there looks attractive for any person with conservative way of thinking. They gets you hooked into the spiral to follow their viewpoint.

The worst, many prominent politicians and other popular figures use RT/Sputnik as their source for manipulations. Sadly (thanks to RU invasion), the emperor is naked and it turns out many of them played a role of megaphone producing fear and doubts.

[1]: https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/datablog/ng-inter...

Re: EU to Ban RT and Sputnik

#48

Post by LittleGecko »

belter wrote: post #46
LittleGecko wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last time, when I voted for the 2005 referendum on EU Constitution, I voted yes and it happened. You just vote the wrong way.

Which one:-) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Dutch_European_Constituti... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_French_European_Constitut...

exactly.

Re: EU to Ban RT and Sputnik

#49

Post by beeboop »

a0-prw wrote: post #34

I regularly read RT and occasionally Sputnik. I also read the opposing views held by Western media like Economist, FT, Independent, etc. RT are always careful to acknowledge opposing viewpoints. For example, in all articles on the war, so far, they say "Moscow claims ..." and "Kiev claims ..." Censorship happens when the authorities are afraid of the viewpoints of their opponents. So the EU is afraid of allowing Russ…

During all this mess, RT has always pushed the view that Putin was liberating regions of Ukraine that had lawfully and democratically seceded from Ukraine and welcomed Russian troops. I don't call that very neutral

Re: EU to Ban RT and Sputnik

#50

Post by beeboop »

rsynnott wrote: post #45
tsol wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So who decides what a propaganda outlet is? Some was fox news is one. Some say MSNBC is propaganda. And some say all major news channels allow the narrative to be shifted by outside powers, and therefore qualify as propaganda

Well, Fox and MSNBC aren't owned by a hostile foreign government, so there's that.

From Russia's perspective they are.
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