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Show HN: Detect Russian visitors to block them and protest the war in Ukraine

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Re: Show HN: Detect Russian visitors to block them and protest the war in Ukraine

#81

Post by thesz »

koonsolo wrote: post #80
thesz wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I should point out that you are talking about preventing ongoing war. It is just not possible to prevent harm that was and is being done. I politely withdraw myself from answering your second question. It is too inflammatory. I still think that it is possible for governments to learn - they are people, just like us, - and I think it is not only Russian government who can learn from this situation. I should th…

Thank you for your civil response, and my apologies for my rude response. I will ask another more genuine question (it's a real question that I have). If Russia would have a more democratically elected leader (let's just say Navalny for the sake of argument). Would the ties between EU and Russia be more collaborative, or do you still think this would have ended with a war? In other words, is NATO really out to destro…

I think that boils down to whether concerns of Putin would be "more heard" if they were expressed by different person. From my point of view, some of these concerns were quite important for, let's say, viability of Russia as country with a pinch of independence.

I rephrase. If Russia wants some independence in its decisions from external influence(#), the concerns raised by Putin are valid whoever is the leader of Russia.

I think it is unfortunate if the acceptance of these concerns depends on the person expressing them. Moreso, I think it is unrealistic to expect that different person would express same concerns and get different results without exchange of some other important pieces.

In other words, it appears that NATO does not like Russia in its current form.

Of course I am glad to accept you apologies and, in turn, I would like to express mines. I know I can be excessively sarcastic in my tone and I would like to apologize for that.

(#) I came to think that politics are all about "whose influence we prefer this time of day". The right to choose is still important.

Re: Show HN: Detect Russian visitors to block them and protest the war in Ukraine

#82

Post by leereeves »

koonsolo wrote: post #74
cyber_kinetist wrote: post #28

I see many Russians already enraged about the war, some even doing protests against it. The fact is that most feel powerless and afraid against an autocratic government, and I feel it’s very hard to tell them to retaliate when their lives are on stake. (Maybe your country hasn’t experienced this yet, but hearing anecdotes from my country’s past I understand it’s really hard to mobilize when the next day you can be ki…

> it’s very hard to tell them to retaliate when their lives are on stake I think the general concept is that the pain to continue their lives must be bigger than the pain to try and dethrone the corrupt leader. Not taking either side here, but I can see why it can work.

Honest question: has it ever worked? I know of many countries where it didn't work (e.g. Iran, Cuba, North Korea, Venezuela, Libya before the Western invasion, and even previous sanctions on Russia) but I can't think of one where it did.

Re: Show HN: Detect Russian visitors to block them and protest the war in Ukraine

#83

Post by yuppie_scum »

leereeves wrote: post #82
koonsolo wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it’s very hard to tell them to retaliate when their lives are on stake I think the general concept is that the pain to continue their lives must be bigger than the pain to try and dethrone the corrupt leader. Not taking either side here, but I can see why it can work.

Honest question: has it ever worked? I know of many countries where it didn't work (e.g. Iran, Cuba, North Korea, Venezuela, Libya before the Western invasion, and even previous sanctions on Russia) but I can't think of one where it did.

It happened in the Soviet Union in 1991.

Re: Show HN: Detect Russian visitors to block them and protest the war in Ukraine

#84

Post by leereeves »

yuppie_scum wrote: post #83
leereeves wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question: has it ever worked? I know of many countries where it didn't work (e.g. Iran, Cuba, North Korea, Venezuela, Libya before the Western invasion, and even previous sanctions on Russia) but I can't think of one where it did.

It happened in the Soviet Union in 1991.

That's not what happened in the Soviet Union at all. The people didn't "dethrone the corrupt leader", in fact the people had very little to do with the events of 1991.

Instead, the leader of the Soviet Union (Gorbachev) attempted liberal reforms which provoked a coup attempt led by eight high level Soviet officials who were communist hard-liners. When the coup failed, the leaders of various Soviet Republics declared independence - including Boris Yeltsin, who was the leader of Russia within the Soviet Union before the coup (specifically, the Chairman of the Supreme Soviet of the Russian SFSR).

The whole thing was a power struggle between high ranking politicians.

And in addition, far from being evidence that sanctions can work, the Soviet example is evidence that authoritarian empires can collapse when they attempt to liberalize:

"The process of implementing perestroika created shortages, political, social, and economic tensions within the Soviet Union and is often blamed for the political ascent of nationalism and nationalist political parties in the constituent republics. Perestroika and its associated structural ailments have been cited as major catalysts leading to the dissolution of the Soviet Union."[1]

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perestroika

Re: Show HN: Detect Russian visitors to block them and protest the war in Ukraine

#85

Post by koonsolo »

leereeves wrote: post #82
koonsolo wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it’s very hard to tell them to retaliate when their lives are on stake I think the general concept is that the pain to continue their lives must be bigger than the pain to try and dethrone the corrupt leader. Not taking either side here, but I can see why it can work.

Honest question: has it ever worked? I know of many countries where it didn't work (e.g. Iran, Cuba, North Korea, Venezuela, Libya before the Western invasion, and even previous sanctions on Russia) but I can't think of one where it did.

Ironically enough, it worked in Ukraine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan

Edit: maybe it wasn't squeezed out by an embargo, but it shows that people can overthrow a government.

Re: Show HN: Detect Russian visitors to block them and protest the war in Ukraine

#86

Post by koonsolo »

thesz wrote: post #81
koonsolo wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for your civil response, and my apologies for my rude response. I will ask another more genuine question (it's a real question that I have). If Russia would have a more democratically elected leader (let's just say Navalny for the sake of argument). Would the ties between EU and Russia be more collaborative, or do you still think this would have ended with a war? In other words, is NATO really out to destro…

I think that boils down to whether concerns of Putin would be "more heard" if they were expressed by different person. From my point of view, some of these concerns were quite important for, let's say, viability of Russia as country with a pinch of independence. I rephrase. If Russia wants some independence in its decisions from external influence(#), the concerns raised by Putin are valid whoever is the leader of Ru…

> Russia wants some independence in its decisions from external influence

Can you give an example of where Russia cannot take independent decisions?

Re: Show HN: Detect Russian visitors to block them and protest the war in Ukraine

#87

Post by leereeves »

koonsolo wrote: post #85
leereeves wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question: has it ever worked? I know of many countries where it didn't work (e.g. Iran, Cuba, North Korea, Venezuela, Libya before the Western invasion, and even previous sanctions on Russia) but I can't think of one where it did.

Ironically enough, it worked in Ukraine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan Edit: maybe it wasn't squeezed out by an embargo, but it shows that people can overthrow a government.

> maybe it wasn't squeezed out by an embargo, but it shows that people can overthrow a government.

Absolutely, I don't question that. And economic issues can be a powerful force toward revolution.

But foreign sanctions always seem to strengthen the regime and provide a convenient excuse even for economic issues that aren't caused by the sanctions. Sanctions seem to make revolution far less likely, which isn't the desired outcome at all.

Re: Show HN: Detect Russian visitors to block them and protest the war in Ukraine

#88

Post by koonsolo »

leereeves wrote: post #87
koonsolo wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ironically enough, it worked in Ukraine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan Edit: maybe it wasn't squeezed out by an embargo, but it shows that people can overthrow a government.

> maybe it wasn't squeezed out by an embargo, but it shows that people can overthrow a government. Absolutely, I don't question that. And economic issues can be a powerful force toward revolution. But foreign sanctions always seem to strengthen the regime and provide a convenient excuse even for economic issues that aren't caused by the sanctions. Sanctions seem to make revolution far less likely, which isn't the des…

I guess I have to agree with you here, because I can't come up with a proper example.

But remark that economic sanctions do have its use by not pumping more money into aggressive nations.

Re: Show HN: Detect Russian visitors to block them and protest the war in Ukraine

#89

Post by thesz »

koonsolo wrote: post #86
thesz wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that boils down to whether concerns of Putin would be "more heard" if they were expressed by different person. From my point of view, some of these concerns were quite important for, let's say, viability of Russia as country with a pinch of independence. I rephrase. If Russia wants some independence in its decisions from external influence(#), the concerns raised by Putin are valid whoever is the leader of Ru…

> Russia wants some independence in its decisions from external influence Can you give an example of where Russia cannot take independent decisions?

What I said was conditional, "if Russia wants...". You cut my words out of this condition. I also should phrase it as "if Russia wants more independence..."

Right now I cannot provide you with concrete example.

Re: Show HN: Detect Russian visitors to block them and protest the war in Ukraine

#90

Post by koonsolo »

thesz wrote: post #89
koonsolo wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Russia wants some independence in its decisions from external influence Can you give an example of where Russia cannot take independent decisions?

What I said was conditional, " if Russia wants...". You cut my words out of this condition. I also should phrase it as "if Russia wants more independence..." Right now I cannot provide you with concrete example.

But you talk about "concerns", so which concerns are that? That Nato would attack Russia?
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