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Bitconnect founder indicted in global $2.4B cryptocurrency scheme

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Re: Bitconnect founder indicted in global $2.4B cryptocurrency scheme

#21
post #7

Nice job. Now if only some people would see the difference between an actual ponzi scheme like this one and bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies. That would be nice.

It will take time. Upsetting technologies attract conartists like flies to honey. Critics will deliberately conflate the cons with the rest until then, as it's a very convenient argument (though obviously fallacious.)

Alternatively, con-artists pose as upsetting technologies to convince people to get in on the "ground floor" of the exciting hyped tech (doesn't necessarily apply to crypto).

Re: Bitconnect founder indicted in global $2.4B cryptocurrency scheme

#22

Nice job. Now if only some people would see the difference between an actual ponzi scheme like this one and bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies. That would be nice.

Let's assume for the faith of your argument that Bitcoin is a ponzi scheme. Who is at the top that gains from all of this? And how are you gonna indict "them" when seemingly no one knows who they are?

Let's just agree to call it a distributed digital Ponzi scheme used for ledgerdemain.

Re: Bitconnect founder indicted in global $2.4B cryptocurrency scheme

#23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There isn't any difference.

I'm very sympathetic with many of the "anti"-crypto arguments but to say there is no difference between BitConnect and Bitcoin/Ethereum is just wrong. You might believe their value is based on a similar concept, pyramid scheme type construct, but they still have massive differences. Bitcoin/Ethereum/etc actually do /something/ (even if you ultimately come to the conclusion that that something is bad).

> Bitcoin/Ethereum/etc actually do /something/

Big if true.

Re: Bitconnect founder indicted in global $2.4B cryptocurrency scheme

#24

Nice job. Now if only some people would see the difference between an actual ponzi scheme like this one and bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies. That would be nice.

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck... Even without the Ponzi scheme and market manipulation; Proof-of-Work based cryptocurrencies are an ecological catastrophe. Other Proof-of-Something™ currencies do not bring much to the table either.

At some point it's only normal there's a push back against cryptocurrencies.

Re: Bitconnect founder indicted in global $2.4B cryptocurrency scheme

#25

Nice job. Now if only some people would see the difference between an actual ponzi scheme like this one and bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies. That would be nice.

Let's assume for the faith of your argument that Bitcoin is a ponzi scheme. Who is at the top that gains from all of this? And how are you gonna indict "them" when seemingly no one knows who they are?

Names are hard, because it is common to name something with what looks most like it, even when there are differences.

There are two separate phenomena that give it the appearance of a Ponzi.

First, a Ponzi works by taking the money of new investors, and distributing it to past investors that cash out with “profit”. Similarly, BTC investing (as in, intending to make a profit from the difference between the buy and the sell price) works by taking the money of new investors (in an exchange) and distributing it to past investors that cash out, yielding a profit that, from a systemic perspective, will eventually cause someone’s loss. From that viewpoint, successful investors are unwittingly taking the money of people that may not afford the loss.

Second, a Ponzi works by making up assets (typically financial instruments) out of thin air, and selling them to victims (some of which will profit, many will lose), making a profit out of thin air. Similarly, the creator of a cryptocurrency typically puts itself in a position where they either premine the coins, or create an algorithmic schedule where most of the coins are created in the first few years, making them out of thin air, and giving themselves a significant advantage, as they will give themselves a generous chunk. They then sell those coins to victims, making a profit out of thin air. Even Nakamoto famously was flagged as an intensive miner in early years, and clearly did not expect to be deanonymized by the coinbase counter, since they changed it once it was found out.

It is true that there are dissimilarities as well. The largest one is the failure mode. A traditional Ponzi fails because people that did not get their “guaranteed profit, whisper past performances is not a guide for future performance”, are unlikely to reinvest, leading to a breaking point where everyone takes their money out until none is left. In the types of cryptocurrencies described above, people are often willing to reinvest even when they lost substantial amounts.

The failure mode typically comes many decades later, when lost keys (deaths etc) cause a slow deflation until no coin remains in use.

Re: Bitconnect founder indicted in global $2.4B cryptocurrency scheme

#26
Crypto may well be the biggest solution looking for a problem I've ever seen.

Apart from the obvious issues (eg energy expenditure) the one myth that needs to die about crypto is that it is extragovernmental and indictments such as this and the Bitfinex laundering case recently should underline that.

The simple fact is that the developed world could shut down what little utility cryptocurrencies (and NFTs) have tomorrow if they chose to. China banned mining and mining was gone immediately (largely moving to Kyrgystan it seems). Defenders will say you can't shut down the network and that might be true but it's irrelevant.

The threat of legal action will be enough to keep th evast majority of people away. And the weakness of any crypto is that at some point it has to interface with the real world or it's completely useless. Obvious example: the traditional financial system. Access to the US financial system is what allows the US government to exercise influence over European financial institutions to stop them, for example, dealing with sanctioned countries like Iran.

Re: Bitconnect founder indicted in global $2.4B cryptocurrency scheme

#27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Show me one cryptocurrency that has driven real world industry more than financial speculation and scamming.

You're moving the goal posts. It's fine to be against cryptocurrencies, but I think it damages your credibility when you claim bitcoin is a ponzi scheme. Since it shows a lack of understanding of what a ponzi scheme actually is. By you I don't mean you in particular, I mean it in a more general sense.

From Wikipedia:

A Ponzi scheme (/ˈpɒnzi/, Italian: [ˈpontsi]) is a form of fraud that lures investors and pays profits to earlier investors with funds from more recent investors.[1] The scheme leads victims to believe that profits are coming from legitimate business activity (e.g., product sales or successful investments), and they remain unaware that other investors are the source of funds. A Ponzi scheme can maintain the illusion of a sustainable business as long as new investors contribute new funds, and as long as most of the investors do not demand full repayment and still believe in the non-existent assets they are purported to own.

Re: Bitconnect founder indicted in global $2.4B cryptocurrency scheme

#29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Show me one cryptocurrency that has driven real world industry more than financial speculation and scamming.

Monero because its untraceable(real world industry - underground drug markets) IRS wants to crack it and awarded $1.25 million contract: https://cointelegraph.com/news/chainalysis-and-texas-firm-wi...

Do you need to crack it if the government can be a majority hashrate of the miner pool? One need not crack it to control it. You'd be able to double spend, mine empty blocks, orphan blocks from other miners, etc. Just need to get to and sustain 51% of the hash pool, which sounds trivial considering nation state compute resources.

Re: Bitconnect founder indicted in global $2.4B cryptocurrency scheme

#30
post #26

Crypto may well be the biggest solution looking for a problem I've ever seen. Apart from the obvious issues (eg energy expenditure) the one myth that needs to die about crypto is that it is extragovernmental and indictments such as this and the Bitfinex laundering case recently should underline that. The simple fact is that the developed world could shut down what little utility cryptocurrencies (and NFTs) have tomor…

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